[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by newmoon

.....Maybe somebody can post actual sales So as good as the 1LE is why isn't it a better seller.

Originally Posted by V8 Fan

.......
Good point. I can count on 1 finger how many SS 1LEs I've ever seen on the road. I've seen more Z28s and 5th and 6th gen ZL1s on the road than I have SS 1LEs. Like you said, if they're so great, why aren't more of them on the road? Camaro fans must not care all that much about handling....

Here’s a link to the thread with 2017 actuals. https://www.camaro6.com/forums/showthread.php?t=515520

A few things of note...

1. For 2017 (2018 numbers not available yet) there were 1,512 SS 1LE sold and 406 LT 1LE. 21,604 were happy with an SS.
2. There were also 3,048 ZL1
3. Since SS 1LE slots between SS and ZL1, buyers have choices for performance. The 1LE has no horsepower or torque advantage over an SS. Just handling, the wrapped hood and the alcantara interior. Far less differentiation than GT —> GT350. In fact, if a buyer was just considering drag times, as V8 Fan implies ZL1 owners want to do, then buying a 1LE is the exact WRONG thing to do, because SS is a better drag car than SS 1LE
4. The primary reason to pay the extra $7k for a 1LE over an SS is to put it on the track. For both Mustang and Camaro, a fairly small population of buyers ever intends to put their cars on the track. In my case I had zero intent of putting my Camaro on the track, so I didn’t buy a 1LE. I also wanted a convertible, so that also ruled out 1LE. Funny thing is, it didn’t take long for me to put it on the track....go figure.

So, at the end of the day, those who want(ed) a 1LE got one and more than likely uses it accordingly. Those who didn’t opt for a 1LE get enough performance (more if drag focused) out of an SS. And a lot who want to be able to do both got the ZL1.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by ST1LE

Looks like the reveal of the GT500 has given Stella her groove back.

Yea well he better watch it...or not, I doubt anyone cares if he gets banned.

Originally Posted by ST1LE

I think 775 is realistic, I feel like Ford will want to one up the Hellcat and the ZR1. With the 5.2 CPC, I dont think that would be difficult to achieve either.

I am going to take a hard look at buying one of these myself. I want a Grand Sport, but if they do this thing right and it doesn't weigh too much, it would be a great car to own.

Are we certain no manual option will be offered yet? So far, it doesnt look good for those of us that prefer a 3rd pedal.

Ford is going to under-rate it by a lot. They will give it a number over 700 but not close to the Redeye and not too far from the ZL1. That way it'll look good for them if thru some miracle they do happen to beat the Redeye but won't look bad if they don't. And it'll also look good if the planets align and they beat the ZLE because a low 700 HP number wouldn't be too much more than the ZL1's 650 but if they lose then it won't look like they had 775 HP and still lost. So it'll be a low 700 HP number regardless of what it actually makes.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by V8 Fan

The GT500 likely won't have the same power advantage, and it's being rumored to be 300+ pounds heavier than the ZL1 brothers. So if it does eclipse them, that will be a big slap in the face to the ZL1s.

The GT350R weighed 221 lbs less that the ZL1. The low weight of the wheels is huge as proven by the gap the R puts on the base GT350. It also had the advantage of a 8,000 rpm, FPC engine designed specifically for the track

GT350R: 3662 lbs / 526 hp = 6.96 lbs/hp.
ZL1: 3883 lbs / 650 hp = 5.97 lbs/hp.

The base GT500 should slap the ZLE if the same standard is applied

Originally Posted by V8 Fan

A little clarification on a few things:

1) Ford never promised a 200 lbs weight reduction with the S550. That was a rumor that was started when GM was releasing its Alpha platform. Mustang guys expected Ford to follow suit, but they didn't and never said they would.

Autoline Daily May 3, 2013. Dave said they where going to lose weight while acknowledging the high level of standard features and options that were in the weight model. (i.e. accounted for)

A.L. I love what your saying about pulling a bunch of weight out of the car

D.P. Yeah. We are definitely going on a crusade to do that. Now how much can we get? I don't know , we're still looking at it. But I think 200 lbs is within our reach.

A.L. Look. All the domestics have a weight problem.

D.P. Yeah

A.L. There is a huge opportunity across the board for GM, Ford and Chrysler to take a lot of weight out.

D.P. There is. Yeah, I mean there are. I problem though is its funny, everybody... We love our creature features here in the States right? So the more you add things as standard features it just adds into your weight model

http://www.examiner.com/article/chief-ford-mustang-engineer-lied-about-weight-reduction-on-2015-ford-mustang

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by V8 Fan

Hmm... My recall letter must've gotten lost in the mail.

Because you don't have one. But in the off chance that you do, then maybe you should contact your dealership and have it done before yours (if you actually have one that is) goes up in flames. Funny thing is that my 95 Mark VIII had a recall for the CC that could actually cause the car to catch fire even if it wasn't running. They sent letters out telling people not to drive them, not to park it in their garage, and not to park it near a house. LOL!! 20 years later and it looks like they still have the same problems with Ford. Go figure.

https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-car...cooler-defect/

Originally Posted by V8 Fan

You're being disingenuous again. If it does what you say is "all it has to do," it would be beating two cars in the areas where they aren't intended to compete. It would be a failure in everybody's mind, especially Mustang fans, but I'm sure you would be in glee. Nice try, though.

Actually, that was me trying to be fair and give the GT500 a fair shake. But don't worry, I won't be saying anything else in it's favor. What I really think is that it's nothing short of a joke how long it took Ford to build this thing. And after all that to not even have more HP than the Redeye. So it already is a let down.

Originally Posted by V8 Fan

Do you really think Ford extended a platform program just so they could release a GT500??? Are you high? You don't seriously believe that, do you?

Anyone with half a brain knows that. Why else did they extend the platform when they've never done so before AND when extending it gives the GT500 exactly 2 years of sales? If they didn't extend it then the GT500 would have been a 1-year sale only and trust me, it was not designed or built to be sold for only 1 year like the Demon was. The only way they could make enough off it to justify releasing it is to have offered it for at least 2 years. Do the math.

Originally Posted by NW-99SS

This - the PP2 is a failure for what it is supposed to be. No one who attends HPDE days or any other style of track day wants a car that is towed off the track after 3 laps.

I really hope Ford adds coolers to the PP2 package and then we can get a H2H of it and the SS 1LE - very interested to see where the performance would lie between the 2 on the same day, track etc, if the PP2 can survive the laps.

The entire lineup has been a failure of epic proportions.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by newmoon

Did Ford ever say their goal with the PP's were to beat the 1LE? I don't think they ever stated that. Why focus the entire PP lineup on beating a very low selling option of the Camaro? I'm not sure what the monthly sales average for the 1LE is but based on the Camaro's overall sales I bet it is insignificant. Maybe somebody can post actual sales So as good as the 1LE is why isn't it a better seller.

Originally Posted by V8 Fan

Good point. I can count on 1 finger how many SS 1LEs I've ever seen on the road. I've seen more Z28s and 5th and 6th gen ZL1s on the road than I have SS 1LEs. Like you said, if they're so great, why aren't more of them on the road? Camaro fans must not care all that much about handling.

LOL! The only reason the ZL1 sells is because the owners want to turn them into drag cars. If Camaro guys actually cared about performance, there would be a lot more SS 1LEs, V6 1LEs, and ZL1 1LEs being sold.

Tell me exactly how bad sales are affecting the profit margin of the Camaro. Can you tell me for certain that Ford is making more or less in profits off the Mustang sales than GM is making off Camaro sales? If not, then until you can, sales figures mean absolutely nothing. Just like income means nothing unless expenses are taken into account.

[Deki]

Originally Posted by newmoon

Did Ford ever say their goal with the PP's were to beat the 1LE? I don't think they ever stated that. Why focus the entire PP lineup on beating a very low selling option of the Camaro? I'm not sure what the monthly sales average for the 1LE is but based on the Camaro's overall sales I bet it is insignificant. Maybe somebody can post actual sales So as good as the 1LE is why isn't it a better seller.

Why would they put Cup 2s on it and tout it as a track car if they weren't competing with the Camaro? What is even the point of the Pp2 if the car goes into limp mode after 1 session?

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by hotlap

The GT350R weighed 221 lbs less that the ZL1. The low weight of the wheels is huge as proven by the gap the R puts on the base GT350. It also had the advantage of a 8,000 rpm, FPC engine designed specifically for the track

GT350R: 3662 lbs / 526 hp = 6.96 lbs/hp.
ZL1: 3883 lbs / 650 hp = 5.97 lbs/hp.

Based on those numbers the GT350R had every advantage and still lost by a lot. And came nowhere close in a straight line.

[V8 Fan]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Because you don't have one. But in the off chance that you do, then maybe you should contact your dealership and have it done before yours (if you actually have one that is) goes up in flames. Funny thing is that my 95 Mark VIII had a recall for the CC that could actually cause the car to catch fire even if it wasn't running. They sent letters out telling people not to drive them, not to park it in their garage, and not to park it near a house. LOL!! 20 years later and it looks like they still have the same problems with Ford. Go figure.

https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-car...cooler-defect/

...

Anyone with half a brain knows that. Why else did they extend the platform when they've never done so before AND when extending it gives the GT500 exactly 2 years of sales? If they didn't extend it then the GT500 would have been a 1-year sale only and trust me, it was not designed or built to be sold for only 1 year like the Demon was. The only way they could make enough off it to justify releasing it is to have offered it for at least 2 years. Do the math.

The entire lineup has been a failure of epic proportions.

That recall does NOT affect ALL GT350s. My R was built after the affected date range. So, you were yet again being disingenuous by stating that ALL GT350s were recalled.



Where in the world are you getting that Ford extended the S550 program?? Stop telling lies.


The entire lineup has been a failure? According to whom? Being the continual sales leader of a segment doesn't sound like a failure to me.

[bobby35ny]

Anyone know....…………..
How does Ford handle TM? They can have a ton of HP but if they TM it down its no big deal. We know the TM on the ZL1 is wayyyyy overbearing.

[Deki]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Based on those numbers the GT350R had every advantage and still lost by a lot. And came nowhere close in a straight line.

You misread it. The ZL1 had the power to weight advantage.

[newmoon]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

No, but you gotta admit, a lot of folks on Mustang6 were expecting that to be the case. That’s why the MT H2H was so widely panned over there. Folks were saying “PP1 is not the 1LE fighter, PP2 is the 1LE fighter”. Personally, I expected PP2 to beat the 1LE. That’s why I was so vocal about Ford putting Cup 2s on it and then saying “it’s not a track car”. Then why the Cup 2s? And why not the appropriate coolers? If they were gonna half-step it, it would have made more sense to include the coolers and let the buyers who want to track it put the track tires on it? Gives me the impression that it was intended to beat 1LE, but since it didn’t, call it “not a track car”.

And, before the replies fly in about getting better times before it had to be pulled off the track, read the middle of this sentence again. It had to be pulled off the track. You can’t win if you can’t stay in. Ford could have avoided that and chose not to. Shame on them.

I agree with all of this to some point. The PP2 can run with the 1LE as reviewed, although for very limited laps. Failure on Fords part for not including coolers.

I am sure they had a valid financial reason not to do so, including not stepping on the 350s toes. Now that the 19 GT350 includes significant improvements to make it faster, which will separate it from the PP2 and 1LE, you may see Ford decide to include the coolers on the PP2.

[NW-99SS]

Originally Posted by newmoon

I agree with all of this to some point. The PP2 can run with the 1LE as reviewed, although for very limited laps. Failure on Fords part for not including coolers.

I am sure they had a valid financial reason not to do so, including not stepping on the 350s toes. Now that the 19 GT350 includes significant improvements to make it faster, which will separate it from the PP2 and 1LE, you may see Ford decide to include the coolers on the PP2.

I hope so, that way a legit PP2 vs 1LE comparison can happen. Although, that would be Ford's 3rd attempt at a track package to compete with the 1LE which has remained unchanged since introduction.

[RobbyBeefcake87]

I'm sure Ford didnt develop the pp line to compete with the 1le but its foolish to think the pp2 in specific wasn't in some form designed to battle with the 1le to some degree. Also 1les aren't huge sellers, especially since the camaro in general gets out sold, but here in fl I see quite a few of them, I have yet to see a pp2 out in the wild.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by newmoon

I agree with all of this to some point. The PP2 can run with the 1LE as reviewed, although for very limited laps. Failure on Fords part for not including coolers.

I am sure they had a valid financial reason not to do so, including not stepping on the 350s toes. Now that the 19 GT350 includes significant improvements to make it faster, which will separate it from the PP2 and 1LE, you may see Ford decide to include the coolers on the PP2.

I totally agree with everything in bold. But still, if they were gonna pull up short for financial reasons, they should have helped the buyer out by including the coolers and letting the buyer bring the track tires if they’re gonna track it. My SS Vert and every Gen 6 SS Vert has all the coolers it needs for drag strip and track, whether I ever plan to take it to the strip or track. If I choose not to, no big deal. But if you go to the Mustang6 PP2 Raves and Reviews thread there are tons of people saying

• I replaced the Cup 2s with <fill in the blank>

or

• Love the car, but could do without the tram-lining

or

• I’m concerned about rock chips from the Cup 2s flinging them

It did not have to be that way. If I were buying a Mustang I would want it to be either a PP2, then I’d have to buy a second set of tires, or a PP1 with all the launch gear.

I’ve heard 1LE drivers complain about the rock flinging, but most of these are guys who I know track their cars, so most not changing their tires. Some have and switch back and forth. And most have quickly added rock guards to their cars.