[hotlap]

Originally Posted by shaffe

LOL Internet logic. To me it seems clear that package is aimed at the ZLE, will it beat it I have no clue. the ZLE is an amazing piece of machinery and taking it on at a reasonable cost is a tall order.

I’m just asking that Ford fans apply the same standard to the GT500 as you did the ZL1. You said ...of course the base ZL1 should beat the GT350R, look at its power advantage. The GT500 will have an identical power advantage over the ZL1.

We all know that’s not going to happen because power is only part of the equation. A ZLE would put laps on a GT350R. You’re all hoping the GT500TP can eek out a win against the ZLE even with a large power advantage.

[waterman]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Sounds like something a person would say if they knew they were gonna lose.

They duck ring times, they won't allow their cars to be tested against certain other cars, they make statements about how they aren't adding coolers because it isn't a track car, and now they make statements about not being interested in track times. To be honest, considering how badly the GT350R got smoked, I don't blame them.

Originally Posted by shaffe

While I would normally agree it sounds like something somebody would say if they knew they were going to lose but it's something they have never done.

Ford to my knowledge has never posted lap times for their cars, even the GT.

This is the first time I ever remember them even saying anything about 1/4 mile times. They normally just leave it to the press to do it.

Also not sticking up for FastCarFanboy but wasn't it Nissan a few years ago that go caught sending a hot car to the Ring to run a better lap time than the production car

VIR Grand Course layout, production car record;

2019 ZR1 ZTK: 2:37.25. Driver, Jim Mero; occupation, ride and handling engineer. Cost $135K+.

2018 Ford GT: 2:38.62. Driver, Billy Johnson; occupation, professional race car driver. Cost $475K+.

Different day, yes. Different conditions, likely yes. GT mid Autumn 2017, ZR1 early winter 2018, likely 2-3 months apart. And yes, this was not officially posted by Ford. Yet Ford could and did not block it's release either. Too busy boasting about accidently beating the Viper ACR MkV's record.

Just saying.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by FastCarFanBoy

I guess we are just gonna have to wait in see. I think everyone will be surprised to see the 500 beat the ZLE because its that good at what it does, but if it runs a 10sec 1/4 and beats the regular ZL1 on a road course that will be plenty good and you should be thankful it took Ford this long to release it.

"That good at what it does"...?? You high?? Excuse me but it hasn't done anything in 6 years except for not exist. And what does it take for Ford to beat a ZL1?? Way more HP, way more time in development, a ZL1 as a benchmark car, and soo much time that an entire platform needed to be extended by a year. All against a "part's bin special" that GM just threw together in 1 year. So I ask you, WTF are you bragging about? Are you buying one? Are you now a magazine racer?

[FastCarFanBoy]

Originally Posted by hotlap

I’m just asking that Ford fans apply the same standard to the GT500 as you did the ZL1. You said ...of course the base ZL1 should beat the GT350R, look at its power advantage. The GT500 will have an identical power advantage over the ZL1.

We all know that’s not going to happen because power is only part of the equation. A ZLE would put laps on a GT350R. You’re all hoping the GT500TP can eek out a win against the ZLE even with a large power advantage.

The GT500 will not have the 125hp 250ft/lb advantage over the ZL1 that the ZL1 had over the R, it may have a 70hp advantage and most likely no torque advantage so no it won't be nearly identical. Rumor is it will be what 300lbs heavier as well? At least try to be realistic.

Now if it comes in at 4225 and beats the ZLE with the shitty S550 chassis....Wow...fairy dust.

[Deki]

I don't think the S550 platform has what it takes to compete with the ZL1 1LE, but that's just my opinion. Ford didnt deliver anything they said they would (well sorter IRS and 200 pounds of weight reduction). Its just an "enhanced" S197 platform, and if it wasn't, it wouldn't have the same wheel base down to 1/10th of an inch. Ford had years to develop the performance pack mustang to beat the 5th gen 1LE and they didnt do it. The 6th gen 1LE is better sorted than the Shelby, and I dont think ford will do what it takes to beat the current ZL1 with the GT500, because they know that people will still buy it. I may be wrong, but I'm just speculating on what I have witnessed the last 4 years.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by FastCarFanBoy

The GT500 will not have the 125hp 250ft/lb advantage over the ZL1 that the ZL1 had over the R, it may have a 70hp advantage and most likely no torque advantage so no it won't be nearly identical. Rumor is it will be what 300lbs heavier as well? At least try to be realistic.

Now if it comes in at 4225 and beats the ZLE with the shitty S550 chassis....Wow...fairy dust.

If it has 775 then that will be 125 genius. And since Ford chose not to reveal the numbers, everything you said is nothing but speculation. And again I ask, are you buying one? Because if not then it doesn't matter what the car does as you'll never get to experience it anyway.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by FastCarFanBoy

The GT500 will not have the 125hp 250ft/lb advantage over the ZL1 that the ZL1 had over the R, it may have a 70hp advantage and most likely no torque advantage so no it won't be nearly identical. Rumor is it will be what 300lbs heavier as well? At least try to be realistic.

Now if it comes in at 4225 and beats the ZLE with the shitty S550 chassis....Wow...fairy dust.

I thought +750 HP is the expectation. 720 HP isn’t going to get the job done at any level IMO

[ST1LE]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

If it has 775 then that will be 125 genius. And since Ford chose not to reveal the numbers, everything you said is nothing but speculation. And again I ask, are you buying one? Because if not then it doesn't matter what the car does as you'll never get to experience it anyway.

I think 775 is realistic, I feel like Ford will want to one up the Hellcat and the ZR1. With the 5.2 CPC, I dont think that would be difficult to achieve either.

I am going to take a hard look at buying one of these myself. I want a Grand Sport, but if they do this thing right and it doesn't weigh too much, it would be a great car to own.

Are we certain no manual option will be offered yet? So far, it doesnt look good for those of us that prefer a 3rd pedal.

[newmoon]

Originally Posted by Deki

I don't think the S550 platform has what it takes to compete with the ZL1 1LE, but that's just my opinion. Ford didnt deliver anything they said they would (well sorter IRS and 200 pounds of weight reduction). Its just an "enhanced" S197 platform, and if it wasn't, it wouldn't have the same wheel base down to 1/10th of an inch. Ford had years to develop the performance pack mustang to beat the 5th gen 1LE and they didnt do it. The 6th gen 1LE is better sorted than the Shelby, and I dont think ford will do what it takes to beat the current ZL1 with the GT500, because they know that people will still buy it. I may be wrong, but I'm just speculating on what I have witnessed the last 4 years.

Did Ford ever say their goal with the PP's were to beat the 1LE? I don't think they ever stated that. Why focus the entire PP lineup on beating a very low selling option of the Camaro? I'm not sure what the monthly sales average for the 1LE is but based on the Camaro's overall sales I bet it is insignificant. Maybe somebody can post actual sales So as good as the 1LE is why isn't it a better seller.

[ST1LE]

Originally Posted by newmoon

Did Ford ever say their goal with the PP's were to beat the 1LE? I don't think they ever stated that. Why focus the entire PP lineup on beating a very low selling option of the Camaro? I'm not sure what the monthly sales average for the 1LE is but based on the Camaro's overall sales I bet it is insignificant. Maybe somebody can post actual sales So as good as the 1LE is why isn't it a better seller.

I dont think anybody looking at what Ford has done this Gen would draw the conclusion that Ford was trying to compete, and that is the intended message you responded to.

Ford is doing what needs to be done to sell cars, and they are kickin tons of ass at that. Performance clearly is not the top priority for a Mustang buyer, and Ford knows that. They have executed the goal of selling Mustangs extremely well.

[V8 Fan]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

...
But the Shelbys started catching on fire, they all had to be recalled...

Hmm... My recall letter must've gotten lost in the mail.

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

In all fairness (can't believe I'm defending the GT500 yet again, lol), all it has to do is beat the ZL1 in a straight line and then beat the Hellcat and Redeye in cornering. It doesn't have to beat the ZLE in cornering nor does it have to beat the Redeye in a straight line.
...

You're being disingenuous again. If it does what you say is "all it has to do," it would be beating two cars in the areas where they aren't intended to compete. It would be a failure in everybody's mind, especially Mustang fans, but I'm sure you would be in glee. Nice try, though.

Originally Posted by hotlap

I’m just asking that Ford fans apply the same standard to the GT500 as you did the ZL1. You said ...of course the base ZL1 should beat the GT350R, look at its power advantage. The GT500 will have an identical power advantage over the ZL1.

We all know that’s not going to happen because power is only part of the equation. A ZLE would put laps on a GT350R. You’re all hoping the GT500TP can eek out a win against the ZLE even with a large power advantage.

The GT500 likely won't have the same power advantage, and it's being rumored to be 300+ pounds heavier than the ZL1 brothers. So if it does eclipse them, that will be a big slap in the face to the ZL1s.

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

...soo much time that an entire platform needed to be extended by a year. ...

Do you really think Ford extended a platform program just so they could release a GT500??? Are you high? You don't seriously believe that, do you?

Originally Posted by Deki

I don't think the S550 platform has what it takes to compete with the ZL1 1LE, but that's just my opinion. Ford didnt deliver anything they said they would (well sorter IRS and 200 pounds of weight reduction). Its just an "enhanced" S197 platform, and if it wasn't, it wouldn't have the same wheel base down to 1/10th of an inch. Ford had years to develop the performance pack mustang to beat the 5th gen 1LE and they didnt do it. The 6th gen 1LE is better sorted than the Shelby, and I dont think ford will do what it takes to beat the current ZL1 with the GT500, because they know that people will still buy it. I may be wrong, but I'm just speculating on what I have witnessed the last 4 years.

A little clarification on a few things:


1) Ford never promised a 200 lbs weight reduction with the S550. That was a rumor that was started when GM was releasing its Alpha platform. Mustang guys expected Ford to follow suit, but they didn't and never said they would.


2) Yes, it is an enhanced S197 chassis. Most people forget that, including Mustang guys. The S550 is not an "all new" chassis.


3) Ford does not benchmark from the Camaro. That is why they didn't bother trying to beat the SS 1LE early on. That is why they didn't bother trying to beat the ZL1s. The Mustang continually outsells the Camaro in spite of minor performance deficits. The only thing Ford cares about is winning sales, which the Mustang does.



4) Chevy has had since 2002 through now to develop their IRS chassis. The S550 is Ford's first real swing at it. However, I still believe they can easily take down the ZL1s with the S550.

Originally Posted by ST1LE

...

Are we certain no manual option will be offered yet? ...

Yes. A DCT is the only transmission that will be offered.

Originally Posted by newmoon

Did Ford ever say their goal with the PP's were to beat the 1LE? I don't think they ever stated that. Why focus the entire PP lineup on beating a very low selling option of the Camaro? I'm not sure what the monthly sales average for the 1LE is but based on the Camaro's overall sales I bet it is insignificant. Maybe somebody can post actual sales So as good as the 1LE is why isn't it a better seller.

Good point. I can count on 1 finger how many SS 1LEs I've ever seen on the road. I've seen more Z28s and 5th and 6th gen ZL1s on the road than I have SS 1LEs. Like you said, if they're so great, why aren't more of them on the road? Camaro fans must not care all that much about handling.

Originally Posted by ST1LE

... Performance clearly is not the top priority for a Mustang buyer...

LOL! The only reason the ZL1 sells is because the owners want to turn them into drag cars. If Camaro guys actually cared about performance, there would be a lot more SS 1LEs, V6 1LEs, and ZL1 1LEs being sold.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by newmoon

Did Ford ever say their goal with the PP's were to beat the 1LE? I don't think they ever stated that. Why focus the entire PP lineup on beating a very low selling option of the Camaro? I'm not sure what the monthly sales average for the 1LE is but based on the Camaro's overall sales I bet it is insignificant. Maybe somebody can post actual sales So as good as the 1LE is why isn't it a better seller.

No, but you gotta admit, a lot of folks on Mustang6 were expecting that to be the case. That’s why the MT H2H was so widely panned over there. Folks were saying “PP1 is not the 1LE fighter, PP2 is the 1LE fighter”. Personally, I expected PP2 to beat the 1LE. That’s why I was so vocal about Ford putting Cup 2s on it and then saying “it’s not a track car”. Then why the Cup 2s? And why not the appropriate coolers? If they were gonna half-step it, it would have made more sense to include the coolers and let the buyers who want to track it put the track tires on it? Gives me the impression that it was intended to beat 1LE, but since it didn’t, call it “not a track car”.

And, before the replies fly in about getting better times before it had to be pulled off the track, read the middle of this sentence again. It had to be pulled off the track. You can’t win if you can’t stay in. Ford could have avoided that and chose not to. Shame on them.

[NW-99SS]

Originally Posted by FastCarFanBoy

I guess we are just gonna have to wait in see. I think everyone will be surprised to see the 500 beat the ZLE because its that good at what it does, but if it runs a 10sec 1/4 and beats the regular ZL1 on a road course that will be plenty good and you should be thankful it took Ford this long to release it.

This is my expectation for the GT500 - to be obviously faster than the ZL1 in a straight line, able to lap faster than the base ZL1, but slot in just behind the ZL1 1LE in road course times - even with the track package.

I see no issue with this, as it would be a great combo and sell well. I hope the GT500 gives a Redeye a run for it's money as well...and really pushes GM to build a faster 1/4 mile Camaro.

[NW-99SS]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

No, but you gotta admit, a lot of folks on Mustang6 were expecting that to be the case. That’s why the MT H2H was so widely panned over there. Personally, I expected PP2 to beat the 1LE. That’s why I was so vocal about Ford putting Cup 2s on it and then saying “it’s not a track car”. Then why the Cup 2s? And why not the appropriate coolers? If they were gonna half-step it, it would have made more sense to include the coolers and let the buyers who want to track it put the track tires on it? Gives me the impression that it was intended to beat 1LE, but since it didn’t, call it “not a track car”.

And, before the replies fly in about getting better times before it had to be pulled off the track, read the middle of this sentence again. It had to be pulled off the track. You can’t win if you can’t stay in. Ford could have avoided that and chose not to. Shame on them.

This - the PP2 is a failure for what it is supposed to be. No one who attends HPDE days or any other style of track day wants a car that is towed off the track after 3 laps.

I really hope Ford adds coolers to the PP2 package and then we can get a H2H of it and the SS 1LE - very interested to see where the performance would lie between the 2 on the same day, track etc, if the PP2 can survive the laps.