[newmoon]

Originally Posted by ST1LE

This is such a selective BS statement. Nothing is slowed than a manual Mustang GT and you know it!

Is the fastest SS faster than the fastest GT? Or are we going to break it down to options and trim levels?

[collinms]

I'm so sick of these mustang guys always thinking their GT is faster than a ZL1. It gets old. They show a clip of a novice ZL1 manual driver getting beat by a full bolt on A10 car and then they think it's real. Lol, literally living in denial. If I wanted to buy a mustang GT, I would have bought one. There is a reason I bought a ZL1, it's better in every measurable performance benchmark. Facts are facts.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by hotlap

You're taking it out of context. ...and you and I have a different view of Raptor, Edge and Focus in the context of performance discussions.
Agree.

If I am taking it out of context then I see your point.

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

Very good question, Shaffe.

It’s possible I may have read too much into Bhobbs’ statement. The way I read it, it seemed to be along the thread of “why not drop the LT5 in the Camaro as an answer to GT500?” If that’s not what Bhobbs was responding to, then I responded to a comment that didn’t mean what I thought it meant.

There is a difference between making calibration changes, valvetrain modifications, et cetera to an engine already in a platform. It’s a completely different thing to add an engine, even one that already exists, to a platform that it is not already in. That would be the scenario for putting LT5 in Camaro. LT4 was added at a vehicle major change, when that level of certification and validation are already planned and in the books. To do that as a model year change is a really big deal. The 662 for the 2013-14 GT500 was a big hairy deal and significantly different than the incremental hp bumps in the prior years.

Why GM doesn’t make incremental hp bumps? Not totally certain. It’s not that they can’t. Sometimes they do, but usually they don’t. I will say that during the time period since the 6th Gen launch a lot of Small Block brainpower has been applied to transitioning the Silverado / Sierra / Tahoe / Yukon V8s from AFM to DFM. So it could have just been a matter of priorities with constrained manpower.

Very interesting! love when you are able to chime in as a former insider on stuff like this.

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

If I'm wrong then I'm wrong. But I doubt that car will be less than $70K Base.

Not for nothin...but there were also many people who ate Tide pods, did a Keke challenge and got hit by cars and walked into poles and street signs, and decided it was a good idea to walk around blindfolded after watching a Netflix movie. Just sayin that sometimes people don't really have common sense.

I've been saying this exact same thing for months.

also true haha. I think what really gets people upset though and this is just me throwing it out there. Some camaro people still get mad that they don't get everything Corvette gets. They have said Camaro isn't held back anymore, yet Corvette still gets the top powertrains in the LT5 and previous gen LS9. I think that is why people want them to respond, they see that GM has something on the shelf that could make the Camaro even more of a game changer but GM won't do it because of the Corvette and I think that still pisses people off that Corvette is still the king around Chevy and GM.

Originally Posted by JhonnyGTR

I think that what happens is that many purists give more importance to numbers in horsepower. they do not pay much attention to all the situations in which the ZL1 is equal to or superior to its rivals, 808 HP, 797 HP, 700+ HP and 710 HP vs. 650 HP is what they see and are interested in and seemingly where they start to criticize.

I will be wrong?

This ^

Originally Posted by collinms

Ford says they have no interest in lap times for the Gt500... Weird, seems like a red flag. Demon style.

Where did they say that?

[collinms]

https://www2.motorauthority.com/news...g-shelby-gt500

Ouch...

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by newmoon

Is the fastest SS faster than the fastest GT? Or are we going to break it down to options and trim levels?

Are you referring to the GT or a GT* compared to the SS?

This is typical Ford. A specific combination that can is quoted by all the guys that own the version the is compromised

* GT, A10, PP, Michelin PS, 3.55 in drag race mode

[ST1LE]

Originally Posted by newmoon

Is the fastest SS faster than the fastest GT? Or are we going to break it down to options and trim levels?

"slowest of all three manufacturer's offerings" were your exact words. Ford does offer THE slowest in their manual Mustang GT.

I know why you dont want to talk about that car though, so let's say the intention was to say "Slowest of all three manufacturer's FASTEST offerings".....fair enough.....carry on hahahaha.

[ST1LE]

Not chasing lap times is, IMHO, the right option. They already offer the GT350, that IS Ford's track car. There will be no reduction in GT500 sales due to track times, regardless of what they are. Strip times will be the important performance metric for most buyers.

IMHO, offering a 1/4 mile King, packed with comfort and features, allows them to easily keep the GT500 at ZL1 prices. A GT500 1/4 killer, no limited production, at ZL1 prices, is the biggest punch in the face Ford can deliver to GM IMO. Offering a GT500 that is north of $70K would not be the decision that would sell the most cars. Who would buy a GT350R if you could get a GT500 that is faster around a track?

Also, I don't intend to state Ford may not offer an "R" version, and I dont think anything said anywhere can lead to counting out that option later. GT500 won't chase laps times, but maybe the GT500R will.....time will tell, but again a base GT500 at ZL1 prices and the possibility of an R version later seems like a great plan to me.

[13vertss]

Originally Posted by ST1LE

Not chasing lap times is, IMHO, the right option. They already offer the GT350, that IS Ford's track car. There will be no reduction in GT500 sales due to track times, regardless of what they are. Strip times will be the important performance metric for most buyers.

IMHO, offering a 1/4 mile King, packed with comfort and features, allows them to easily keep the GT500 at ZL1 prices. A GT500 1/4 killer, no limited production, at ZL1 prices, is the biggest punch in the face Ford can deliver to GM IMO. Offering a GT500 that is north of $70K would not be the decision that would sell the most cars. Who would buy a GT350R if you could get a GT500 that is faster around a track?

Also, I don't intend to state Ford may not offer an "R" version, and I dont think anything said anywhere can lead to counting out that option later. GT500 won't chase laps times, but maybe the GT500R will.....time will tell, but again a base GT500 at ZL1 prices and the possibility of an R version later seems like a great plan to me.

What more could they do to the TP GT500 to make it a R? It has the CF wheels and cup2 tires, has all the aero! Rear seat delete. So basically everything that makes the R over the gt350.

[ST1LE]

Originally Posted by 13vertss

What more could they do to the TP GT500 to make it a R? It has the CF wheels and cup2 tires, has all the aero! Rear seat delete. So basically everything that makes the R over the gt350.

OH.....I didnt know we had that much information already. The GT350 has tons of Aero, but the R steps that up. They could take a step forward in additional carbon fiber and more intense suspension.

I guess with the weight this thing is tipping the scales at, they may have done all they can already to lighten the car.

Either way, R version offered or not, there is NO need for Ford to chase track times in the GT500.

Outside of this forum, who really cares? The other forum will make whatever excuse they need to in order to justify whatever Ford offers them, and joe-public is clueless anyway.

[Idaho2018GTPremium]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Did you not read anything I wrote or did you just choose to ignore it or are you, like others, still just trying to find anything to criticize the Camaro over?? Because I clearly answered and explained everything you mentioned.

Chevy doesn't need to answer the Hellcat for starters. And if they did, then why hasn't Dodge answered to the ZL1's superior handling? As much as you don't want to admit it, the ZL1 is at worst equal to the Hellcat when both are in stock trim. On average the ZL1 has the advantage due to the stock tires. So why is the Hellcat nowhere even close to the ZL1 on a track? If the ZL1 has to constantly improve despite being in a completely new Gen and making improvements in every category, then why is the Hellcat allowed to have the same 10 year old platform and improve in only 1 area? If you're criticizing the ZL1 for that then you should be criticizing the Hellcat for like 5 different things. But you're not. How biased. The 1320?? Really? Again, who wins on the track?? You're looking at ONE aspect and trying to use that against the Camaro because that's all you got. And it is a silly argument. Let's look at ALL the performance categories and then tell me where your all of a sudden favorite car on the planet (Challengers) end up. Dead last. I bet the SLE and a standard Vette could beat a Hellcat around a track without much effort. Care to debate that??

And again, if the Camaro has to answer the Hellcat the why did Ford not have an answer to the Hellcat, Demon, Redeye, ZL1 1LE, and ZL1 all this time? Oh they didn't have a model in time. Well how much time did they need? GM had something ready to fight and beat all the competitors after a 1 year hiatus. I repeat, since you missed it the first time...GM does not have to answer every time someone pushes ahead by one tenth of a second. The GT was the one that had to catch up to the SS. And for all their efforts, that is all they could manage to do...catch up to a then 2-3 year old unchanged vehicle. The 1320 is Dodge do everything they can to milk every last drop from the Challenger platform. That is all it is. It is a R/T Scat Pack with some components from other Challengers that does slightly better in the quarter mile and does nothing else. The Redeye is a Hellcat with a bigger blower and a few other things carried over from the Demon. So far it dynos exactly what the Hellcat dynos to the wheels. That's a bit curious eh?? So is it really 797 HP? Because if you do the math, 797 HP comes out to approx what the 707 HP HCs were making at the wheels all this time. Look that up and tell me what you think.

So if anything, Dodge chose not to provide a car that handles even remotely good. And that's good for them. Ford HAD to respond to the SS, SLE, ZL1, and ZLE. They had no recourse but to. GM has nobody to answer to because they set the performance bar. They set it and then went back to set more bars later. Ford had to reach that bar. And more than likely, the Camaro will set the bar again. When Dodge makes something that not only goes fast in a straight line but also can at least compete on a track without looking like a joke then the Camaro will have something to battle. When Ford stops coming late to the table to battle Camaros that were put out years ago, then the Camaro might have some competition. When the Mustang gets the proper coolers so they don't overheat, then the Camaro might have their hands full. When Mustangs don't have excessive engine, drivetrain, suspension, and other mechanical issues, then the Camaro might have something to worry about. Until then I don't see how they should be worried about any of the competition. Basically, the competition is a joke to the Camaro.

You're delusional if you think that GM never has to counter what Ford Performance does. It took Chevy 4 years to match the acceleration of the 2013 GT500 (traps 126 mph in the 1/4 mile with massively tall gearing). You have conveniently forgotten to mention that. Isn't that about what the 2019 ZL1 and Hellcat are trapping? By your logic, the 2013 GT500 was ahead of its time in power/acceleration. As I mentioned before, it also took Chevy a year or two to respond to the GT350R with the ZL1, the GT350R being a faster track car than the Z28 (the 5th Gen ZL1 wasn't even close). Yes, it's taken them some time, but Ford is now responding to the ZL1 and I believe the ZLE with the new Shelby GT500.

I agree that with the GT vs SS, Ford has been playing a lot of catch up, no argument there. But they finally did catch up, to a high bar set by Chevy for the mid-level performance car. And we're all better off for the competition, because I have a car that I love, and wouldn't have bought if Ford remained satisfied with the '15-17 S550 performance. But with regard to the halo models, it's been back and forth.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by newmoon

You can ramble on all you want but it doesn't change the facts. Presently the SS and ZL1 are, or soon will be the slowest of all three manufacturers offerings. When is the 7th Gen due?

Everything you said is wrong.

Right now the ZL1 is the fastest. That is fact #1.

Fact #2. The ZL1 will destroy the Redeye on a track. And it costs $15K more. So really, they aren't even in the same price category.

Fact #3. The slowest of all of them at everything is the 5.7 Hemi Challenger.

Fact #4. As noted, the M6 GT is slower than the SS. But congrats on being faster than the 5.7 Hemi Challenger I guess.

Fact #5. The GT500 is not available yet, won't be available for some time, and everything about it's performance until it is tested is nothing more than wishful dreaming and speculation. Let me know when it comes out and is tested. Then we can go over the results.

Fact #6. The GT500 will have to beat the ZLE in order to be the "fastest". Let me know if that happens. Until then, please refer back to fact #1.

Fact #7. The vast majority of us have told you for months now that we don't care if the GT or the GT500 is faster than the SS or ZL1 given the amount of time it took Ford to build them. In fact we all told you that they both SHOULD damn well be faster and if they aren't then they're both a failure. Considering that the M6 GT can't beat the SS at anything, that is a failure.

Fact #8. After the MSRP and markups, the only people who will be able to afford these cars won't even care about this nonsense you're talking anyway. So congrats on joining the magazine racer club.

Finally, if you buy a GT500 then I would love to hear all about your experience with the car. If I buy one, I'll let you know how it stacks up from a first hand experience.

[Idaho2018GTPremium]

Originally Posted by collinms

I'm so sick of these mustang guys always thinking their GT is faster than a ZL1. It gets old. They show a clip of a novice ZL1 manual driver getting beat by a full bolt on A10 car and then they think it's real. Lol, literally living in denial. If I wanted to buy a mustang GT, I would have bought one. There is a reason I bought a ZL1, it's better in every measurable performance benchmark. Facts are facts.

No Mustang guy thinks their stock '18 GT A10 is as fast as a stock ZL1. The '18 GT A10 traps 118-120 mph in the 1/4 mile, and we all know the ZL1 traps 124-126 mph. A full bolt on A10 '18 GT could probably trap around 123-125 mph with the right conditions.

[collinms]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Everything you said is wrong.

Right now the ZL1 is the fastest. That is fact #1.

Fact #2. The ZL1 will destroy the Redeye on a track. And it costs $15K more. So really, they aren't even in the same price category.

Fact #3. The slowest of all of them at everything is the 5.7 Hemi Challenger.

Fact #4. As noted, the M6 GT is slower than the SS. But congrats on being faster than the 5.7 Hemi Challenger I guess.

Fact #5. The GT500 is not available yet, won't be available for some time, and everything about it's performance until it is tested is nothing more than wishful dreaming and speculation. Let me know when it comes out and is tested. Then we can go over the results.

Fact #6. The GT500 will have to beat the ZLE in order to be the "fastest". Let me know if that happens. Until then, please refer back to fact #1.

Fact #7. The vast majority of us have told you for months now that we don't care if the GT or the GT500 is faster than the SS or ZL1 given the amount of time it took Ford to build them. In fact we all told you that they both SHOULD damn well be faster and if they aren't then they're both a failure. Considering that the M6 GT can't beat the SS at anything, that is a failure.

Fact #8. After the MSRP and markups, the only people who will be able to afford these cars won't even care about this nonsense you're talking anyway. So congrats on joining the magazine racer club.

Finally, if you buy a GT500 then I would love to hear all about your experience with the car. If I buy one, I'll let you know how it stacks up from a first hand experience.

Well said. +1

[JhonnyGTR]

Originally Posted by newmoon

You can ramble on all you want but it doesn't change the facts. Presently the SS and ZL1 are, or soon will be the slowest of all three manufacturers offerings. When is the 7th Gen due?

Aja, And when Ford is in the same situation because Chevrolet raised the bar, and lasts a long time in answering what are you going to say?