[hotlap]

Originally Posted by shaffe

Your original comment.

"Point is that Chevy Performance wasn’t idle and accomplished far more than Ford in the intervening time (below). "

Those are your words. If you wanted to keep it just a conversation between Mustang and Camaro I will concede the point to you. BUT you didn't. You brought in Corvette, and put it under the Chevy performance flag and said look what Chevy performance has done. Once you brought the Corvette into the discussion that brings all the other Ford Performance vehicles into the discussion, thus Ford Performance accomplished more in the same time frame.

"Chevy has done far more for the performance enthusiast than Ford."

No they haven't. Chevy has no response for the Focus and Fiesta ST. No response for the Focus RS, no Raptor fighter, no Edge ST or upcoming Explorer ST. That is a wide range of automotive enthusiasts that Ford has catered to.

Again I'll concede to you if you want to say they did more with Camaro than Ford did with Mustang you will get no argument from me. But to say Chevy Perfomance has done more than Ford Performance since 2012 is just wrong.

And yes I realize this is an argument about semantics lol

Come on man...

Originally Posted by hotlap

I was responding to Chevy not increasing the power for the gen5 ZL1 when the 13 GT500 out with 662 HP.

So when guys say Chevy doesn't respond to Mustang, look at the body of work and the result.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by hotlap

Come on man...

Haha why do you keep ignoring this statement you made though lol

Originally Posted by hotlap

Chevy has done far more for the performance enthusiast than Ford.

It's because they haven't lol I told you I would give you the point about Cehvy doing more with the Camaro in that time frame then Ford, but to say Chevy has done more for enthusiasts than ford is just not true

BTW this is all in good fun

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by shaffe

Haha why do you keep ignoring this statement you made though lol

It's because they haven't lol I told you I would give you the point about Cehvy doing more with the Camaro in that time frame then Ford, but to say Chevy has done more for enthusiasts than ford is just not true

BTW this is all in good fun

You're taking it out of context. ...and you and I have a different view of Raptor, Edge and Focus in the context of performance discussions.
Agree.

[rocket403]

I agree with Hotlap I'm old school all my performance interest would need to be V8 rear drive or 4x4 so Raptor yes other than V6 TT (would hate to have any V6TT out of warranty)

[fredz]

I had a gt350, I sold it and receiving a 2019 ZLE tomorrow. Wouldn't trade that plan.

But I hear a lot of who would win the track race between the two. Well, let's add it the vaunted Hellcat to the mix and go for a track day. I am just playing what I found, not making any statements.
Fredz


https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...D&&FORM=VRDGAR

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by shaffe

Just relaying the message of the people my man lol. Go look in the ZL1 subsection and you will see plenty of people wanting a LT5 ZL1 to "respond" to the GT500

.........

So answer me this then Martin, I would love to hear from someone who used to be on the inside. Why then is Ford able to keep updating then? Just look at this:

GT500 went from, 500 in 07-09 to 540 in 10, to 550 in 11 and 12 and 662 in 13/14.

GT went from 412 in 11 and 12, to 420 in 13 and 14.

Challenger seems to be constantly updating as well. Why do they do it but GM doesn't?



......

Very good question, Shaffe.

It’s possible I may have read too much into Bhobbs’ statement. The way I read it, it seemed to be along the thread of “why not drop the LT5 in the Camaro as an answer to GT500?” If that’s not what Bhobbs was responding to, then I responded to a comment that didn’t mean what I thought it meant.

There is a difference between making calibration changes, valvetrain modifications, et cetera to an engine already in a platform. It’s a completely different thing to add an engine, even one that already exists, to a platform that it is not already in. That would be the scenario for putting LT5 in Camaro. LT4 was added at a vehicle major change, when that level of certification and validation are already planned and in the books. To do that as a model year change is a really big deal. The 662 for the 2013-14 GT500 was a big hairy deal and significantly different than the incremental hp bumps in the prior years.

Why GM doesn’t make incremental hp bumps? Not totally certain. It’s not that they can’t. Sometimes they do, but usually they don’t. I will say that during the time period since the 6th Gen launch a lot of Small Block brainpower has been applied to transitioning the Silverado / Sierra / Tahoe / Yukon V8s from AFM to DFM. So it could have just been a matter of priorities with constrained manpower.

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

Camaro won't respond to the GT500 or the Hellcat because corporate has no interest in responding.

Ford and Dodge let their engineers come up with anything they can. GM tells them what they have to work with and the engineers do their best.

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

If only it were that simple. Whatever Ford and Dodge engineers “come up with” would still have to run a gauntlet of prototyping, validation activity, safety confirmation, fuel economy testing and balancing against other portfolio entries. These and other bureaucratic issues that the customer could give a $#!t about, but automakers have to adhere to. One slip up on running this gauntlet = game over, no respawn.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by newmoon

We can all refer back to these pricing conversations once pricing is announced and see who was closest to actual. Does the closest guess win a prize?

If I'm wrong then I'm wrong. But I doubt that car will be less than $70K Base.

Originally Posted by shaffe

Just relaying the message of the people my man lol. Go look in the ZL1 subsection and you will see plenty of people wanting a LT5 ZL1 to "respond" to the GT500

Not for nothin...but there were also many people who ate Tide pods, did a Keke challenge and got hit by cars and walked into poles and street signs, and decided it was a good idea to walk around blindfolded after watching a Netflix movie. Just sayin that sometimes people don't really have common sense.

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

There is a difference between making calibration changes, valvetrain modifications, et cetera to an engine already in a platform. It’s a completely different thing to add an engine, even one that already exists, to a platform that it is not already in. That would be the scenario for putting LT5 in Camaro. LT4 was added at a vehicle major change, when that level of certification and validation are already planned and in the books. To do that as a model year change is a really big deal. The 662 for the 2013-14 GT500 was a big hairy deal and significantly different than the incremental hp bumps in the prior years.

I've been saying this exact same thing for months.

[triggerjerk]

I am sick of the excuses. Tell it to Dodge. They found a way to build the Demon and Trackhawk after all.

So to summarize:

GM cannot or will not:
-Put an existing engine into a vehicle not originally planned for (even though the LT4 and LT5 are similar. And everyone has known for years the GT500 was coming)
-Design a front end (see Silverado and SS).
-Advertise their products (see pulled "real idiots" ad)
-Figure out how to sell luxury cars
-Figure out how to sell mid size sedans
-Figure out how to sell hybrids with superior tech (see Bolt)

I see another bail out coming.

[BlaqWhole]

Let's look at things rationally. Why does GM need to respond? Ok let's go back to 2010.

Camaro SS shows up with 426/400 and 400/400 HP/TQ against the GT's 315/325 HP/TQ. Along with having IRS and other features that the GT didn't have. The Camaro remained mechanically unchanged for that entire 5th Gen. Meanwhile the GT had to up their game by 96 HP and 65 TQ just to keep up. They still had solid rear axle and not as many features as the SS had. The 2012 GT500 shows up with 580 HP to the GT500's 550. So Ford again has to step their game up for 2013-2014. Meanwhile the Z28 shows up. Ford has to step their game up with the GT350 for the 6th Gen to battle it which turns out to be a serious mistake on their part. Meanwhile the GT jumps up another 9 HP (whoopty effing doo) to 420 HP. All the while GM had been done started on the 6th Gen. So while Ford was busy answering to what GM had done, GM was busy moving ahead.

Enter the 6th Gen. The GT gains weight due to IRS and an extra 15 HP which is neutralized by the aforementioned extra weight. GM bumps the Camaro up to 455 HP. So let's stop right there and review, from 11-16 the Mustang went from 411 to 435 which is a 24 HP gain but they had to do it in 2 stages. The Camaro went from 426 to 455 in one shot which was a 29 HP gain. The GT gained 2 tenths in the quarter mile from 11-13 but then lost that time with the added weight of the S550 despite gaining HP. The Camaro on the other hand dropped over half a second off their quarter mile time.

Ok so now we're at the 6th Gen for both cars. The SS heavily outperforms the GT. In 2017 the ZL1 shows up. Then in 2018 the ZLE shows up. All the while the GT350 and GT350R both are outmatched. Why? Because Ford tried to answer the outgoing 5th Gen Z28 and ended up being outmatched by the new Gen of Camaros. So the ZL1 shows to be more than a match for the Shelbys, runs right along with the more powerful Hellcat in a straight line, and proves to be cheaper than both cars. It has more standard options than the Shelby and beats the Shelby at everything. It has the same amount of options standard as the Hellcat but matches the Hellcat in the quarter mile while delivering the Hellcat a massive beating on the track. Meanwhile the SS and SLE proves more than a match for the GT, the GT PP, and can even hang with the much more expensive GT350. The ZLE is just in a class by itself. So GM moves on to the next project while Ford is, yet again, fighting the older and unchanged Camaros. They had to completely rebuild the GT and then do a PP2. The GT350s remained unchanged. So now they finally match the SS which (along with other things) pushes the release of the GT500 back soo far the the entire S550 platform has to get extended for 1 full year.

So the GT500 is finally arriving in the ZL1's 4th MY of production and will be available for only 2 MYs. What exactly is there to answer to? The Demon was a 1 year only vehicle and is good at one thing. And it showed up after the Hellcat had been out for 3 MYs on a 10 year old platform. So in the amount of time that the Challenger has been out it has been on the same platform while the Camaro has gone thru an entire Gen and has made some extreme changes from the 5th to the 6th Gen. The Redeye shows up 4 MYs after the Hellcat has been released. Where are we in ZL1 MYs...?? Oh right, it's 3rd year and on a new Gen. So why does the Challenger get 10 years on the same platform and 4 MYs of the Hellcat but it's been only 4 MYs on a 6th Gen Camaro platform and only 3 MYs of the ZL1? Why the hell is everyone criticizing GM? Ok so the Redeye beats the ZL1 in a straight line. Well the ZL1 straight up destroys the Redeye around a track. So why isn't that considered a wash? Why is GM drawing all the negative criticism for ONE damn area where it loses to a car that is on a 10 year platform and has 147 more HP?? Meanwhile the Camaro has made incredible improvements in every performance category since 2010 while the Challenger has made improvements in ONE are since 2008. So again, why the bias??

GM has repeatedly built cars that performed soo well that no changes were needed. Against the Mustang, the GT is the one that has constantly needed to answer to the SS. The GT500 has constantly needed to answer to the ZL1. Not the other way around. Even now the 20 GT500 is answering to the 17 ZL1. GM does not need to do bumps over time because they do things the right way the first time and then move on. Ever hear of that? Do it right the first time and you don't have to do it again. The GT was massively overhauled for 2018 to battle the 16 SS. And they matched the SS. Did they leap over it? No. That tells me right there that the 16 Camaro was 2 year's worth of performance ahead of it's time. And the ZL1, considering that it took the Redeye and GT500 to beat it, was 2-4 years ahead of it's time. So again, where does anyone see that GM needs to answer to any of these vehicles when they're the ones struggling to keep up with the Camaro?

On top of that, look what it takes to beat the Camaros. More time in development and more HP and even then it still isn't a sure win. And on top of that the Camaros have been the better performance value over any other vehicle available. But let's forget all the details and just criticize the Camaro. Sure. The problem is that everyone complaining is short-sighted and looks only at 1 or 2 aspects and nothing else.

[BlaqWhole]

I know my last post is long but it kinda pisses me off that people have such patience for the Challenger and Mustang but the Camaro has to make changes once a month or they're lagging behind. The GT500 has been gone for 6 MYs...6 MYs. The GT got massive changes and that was just to catch up to, repeat "catch up to", a 2 MY old (at that time) Camaro. And that is all it did. It caught up. The Hellcat was unchanged for 4 MYs on a 10 year old platform before the Redeye showed up. I'm not even addressing the Demon because there is no need since it was a 1 year only production. And so it beats the ZL1 in the quarter. Other than that it has made not one other improvement in 10 years. 10 damn years and the only thing it got better at is going fast in a straight line. All the changes that GM has made to the Camaro and then improved upon that and none of that is enough?? Ok so go buy an $80K Redeye that can beat a $64K ZL1 in one thing. Or go buy a GT500 at what will surely be over $80K with all the markups it will have to beat a $64K ZL1 that you can get without any markups and fully optioned. Let me know how all that works out.

[Chadicus]

Originally Posted by triggerjerk

I am sick of the excuses. Tell it to Dodge. They found a way to build the Demon and Trackhawk after all.

So to summarize:

GM cannot or will not:
-Put an existing engine into a vehicle not originally planned for (even though the LT4 and LT5 are similar. And everyone has known for years the GT500 was coming)
-Design a front end (see Silverado and SS).
-Advertise their products (see pulled "real idiots" ad)
-Figure out how to sell luxury cars
-Figure out how to sell mid size sedans
-Figure out how to sell hybrids with superior tech (see Bolt)

I see another bail out coming.

Why does a Camaro need the LT5 in a gen 6? By the time they did that the 7th gen would be a few months away.

NO ONE is selling mid size sedans. People dont want one.

Front end design I agree with you. I think the Silverado is better than the 19 Camaro though.

Luxury cars are a hard sell. People want SUVs.

The Bolt was poorly received because it was small, ugly, and had a limited range.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

I know my last post is long but it kinda pisses me off that people have such patience for the Challenger and Mustang but the Camaro has to make changes once a month or they're lagging behind. The GT500 has been gone for 6 MYs...6 MYs. The GT got massive changes and that was just to catch up to, repeat "catch up to", a 2 MY old (at that time) Camaro. And that is all it did. It caught up. The Hellcat was unchanged for 4 MYs on a 10 year old platform before the Redeye showed up. I'm not even addressing the Demon because there is no need since it was a 1 year only production. And so it beats the ZL1 in the quarter. Other than that it has made not one other improvement in 10 years. 10 damn years and the only thing it got better at is going fast in a straight line. All the changes that GM has made to the Camaro and then improved upon that and none of that is enough?? Ok so go buy an $80K Redeye that can beat a $64K ZL1 in one thing. Or go buy a GT500 at what will surely be over $80K with all the markups it will have to beat a $64K ZL1 that you can get without any markups and fully optioned. Let me know how all that works out.

I’m glad that I live in a world where a $64k, grand touring ZL1 that runs low 11s in the 1/4 and a 7:29.60 Nurburgring lap disappoints people.

ZL1 1LE => 7:16.04.

Oh... the pain.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by hotlap

I’m glad that I live in a world where a $64k, grand touring ZL1 that runs low 11s in the 1/4 and a 7:29.60 Nurburgring lap disappoints people.

ZL1 1LE => 7:16.04.

Oh... the pain.

Right? That is spot on man!! And further, what was Ford's excuse for not having an answer to the Hellcat? They showed up with a 526 HP GT350 and the GT500's picture on a missing poster for the past 5 MYs. They knew the Hellcat was coming. And they knew the 6th Gen ZL1 was coming. Yet they decided it was best to go after the 15 Z28 in it's final year. What was the reason for that? GM puts out a package that battled everything and lost to nothing in it's price range and I gotta hear people complain that it can't do a 1.6 60 ft despite the fact that it keeps right up with cars that can and that GM didn't answer the GT500 even tho it is showing up for only 2 years at the end of the 6th Gen platform. I swear people just want something to complain about. Or they just want every little reason to try to find something to criticize the ZL1 over. LOL!!

[JhonnyGTR]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Let's look at things rationally. Why does GM need to respond? Ok let's go back to 2010.

Camaro SS shows up with 426/400 and 400/400 HP/TQ against the GT's 315/325 HP/TQ. Along with having IRS and other features that the GT didn't have. The Camaro remained mechanically unchanged for that entire 5th Gen. Meanwhile the GT had to up their game by 96 HP and 65 TQ just to keep up. They still had solid rear axle and not as many features as the SS had. The 2012 GT500 shows up with 580 HP to the GT500's 550. So Ford again has to step their game up for 2013-2014. Meanwhile the Z28 shows up. Ford has to step their game up with the GT350 for the 6th Gen to battle it which turns out to be a serious mistake on their part. Meanwhile the GT jumps up another 9 HP (whoopty effing doo) to 420 HP. All the while GM had been done started on the 6th Gen. So while Ford was busy answering to what GM had done, GM was busy moving ahead.

Enter the 6th Gen. The GT gains weight due to IRS and an extra 15 HP which is neutralized by the aforementioned extra weight. GM bumps the Camaro up to 455 HP. So let's stop right there and review, from 11-16 the Mustang went from 411 to 435 which is a 24 HP gain but they had to do it in 2 stages. The Camaro went from 426 to 455 in one shot which was a 29 HP gain. The GT gained 2 tenths in the quarter mile from 11-13 but then lost that time with the added weight of the S550 despite gaining HP. The Camaro on the other hand dropped over half a second off their quarter mile time.

Ok so now we're at the 6th Gen for both cars. The SS heavily outperforms the GT. In 2017 the ZL1 shows up. Then in 2018 the ZLE shows up. All the while the GT350 and GT350R both are outmatched. Why? Because Ford tried to answer the outgoing 5th Gen Z28 and ended up being outmatched by the new Gen of Camaros. So the ZL1 shows to be more than a match for the Shelbys, runs right along with the more powerful Hellcat in a straight line, and proves to be cheaper than both cars. It has more standard options than the Shelby and beats the Shelby at everything. It has the same amount of options standard as the Hellcat but matches the Hellcat in the quarter mile while delivering the Hellcat a massive beating on the track. Meanwhile the SS and SLE proves more than a match for the GT, the GT PP, and can even hang with the much more expensive GT350. The ZLE is just in a class by itself. So GM moves on to the next project while Ford is, yet again, fighting the older and unchanged Camaros. They had to completely rebuild the GT and then do a PP2. The GT350s remained unchanged. So now they finally match the SS which (along with other things) pushes the release of the GT500 back soo far the the entire S550 platform has to get extended for 1 full year.

So the GT500 is finally arriving in the ZL1's 4th MY of production and will be available for only 2 MYs. What exactly is there to answer to? The Demon was a 1 year only vehicle and is good at one thing. And it showed up after the Hellcat had been out for 3 MYs on a 10 year old platform. So in the amount of time that the Challenger has been out it has been on the same platform while the Camaro has gone thru an entire Gen and has made some extreme changes from the 5th to the 6th Gen. The Redeye shows up 4 MYs after the Hellcat has been released. Where are we in ZL1 MYs...?? Oh right, it's 3rd year and on a new Gen. So why does the Challenger get 10 years on the same platform and 4 MYs of the Hellcat but it's been only 4 MYs on a 6th Gen Camaro platform and only 3 MYs of the ZL1? Why the hell is everyone criticizing GM? Ok so the Redeye beats the ZL1 in a straight line. Well the ZL1 straight up destroys the Redeye around a track. So why isn't that considered a wash? Why is GM drawing all the negative criticism for ONE damn area where it loses to a car that is on a 10 year platform and has 147 more HP?? Meanwhile the Camaro has made incredible improvements in every performance category since 2010 while the Challenger has made improvements in ONE are since 2008. So again, why the bias??

GM has repeatedly built cars that performed soo well that no changes were needed. Against the Mustang, the GT is the one that has constantly needed to answer to the SS. The GT500 has constantly needed to answer to the ZL1. Not the other way around. Even now the 20 GT500 is answering to the 17 ZL1. GM does not need to do bumps over time because they do things the right way the first time and then move on. Ever hear of that? Do it right the first time and you don't have to do it again. The GT was massively overhauled for 2018 to battle the 16 SS. And they matched the SS. Did they leap over it? No. That tells me right there that the 16 Camaro was 2 year's worth of performance ahead of it's time. And the ZL1, considering that it took the Redeye and GT500 to beat it, was 2-4 years ahead of it's time. So again, where does anyone see that GM needs to answer to any of these vehicles when they're the ones struggling to keep up with the Camaro?

On top of that, look what it takes to beat the Camaros. More time in development and more HP and even then it still isn't a sure win. And on top of that the Camaros have been the better performance value over any other vehicle available. But let's forget all the details and just criticize the Camaro. Sure. The problem is that everyone complaining is short-sighted and looks only at 1 or 2 aspects and nothing else.

I think that what happens is that many purists give more importance to numbers in horsepower. they do not pay much attention to all the situations in which the ZL1 is equal to or superior to its rivals, 808 HP, 797 HP, 700+ HP and 710 HP vs. 650 HP is what they see and are interested in and seemingly where they start to criticize.

I will be wrong?