[Deputy Dog]

Originally Posted by Frisbey

This^^^^^

People try and blame or shift the argument to make it political, and to a certain extent, political policies do play a role,

But,
The real issue is understanding economics which most people don’t.

We as a country would rather save 25 cents on a pair of socks from Walmart than buy an American product. Just an example!

Here’s a crude example of our reality,
Imagine the TOTAL wealth in America fitting in a bucket,
Every time we buy something from out of this country, be it labor or products without having an equal reciprocal purchase, the total in the bucket shrinks!

Here’s the hard question, what happens when the bucket is empty?
.
.
.
There is only one answer to that question, and your not going to like it!
Btw, the bucket is getting closer and closer to empty!

It’s unfortunate our schools don’t teach real world economics any more.

As Doc said, there’s a lot more to it, but the short term benefit of cheap products from overseas, has a devastating long term effect, something we all need to understand, especially our politicians!

Rant over.
Long live the Camaro!

Exactly, its what I have been preaching for years..I buy American products as much as possible even if it might cost me a little more.

[nitrojedi]

Originally Posted by Doc

This ignores the sad reality that the reason why American manufacturing moved overseas was because American union labor was so bad at what they did, especially in the 80's and 90's, that the only way to get better results was to move out of the country. Foreign workers were willing to work harder and do a better job; that's how Toyota, Nissan, Mazda became better choices than American built. American unions produced workers that couldn't be fired for performance, so they stopped caring about the quality of their work.

I stopped buying American in 1988 because the brand new Pontiac Firebird GTA I leased was such a piece of junk, that I had to turn it back in to the lease company after the first year due to a non-stop string of issues; all due to poor manufacturing quality. The Japanese were doing a much better job of assembly and quality control; body panels were made and fit to better standards. You could see the difference when you put a Japanese made car next to an American union built car. THAT'S what started the move to overseas manufacturing; American workers wanted executive pay just because they showed up for work; regardless of whether they did a good job or not.

Now South Korea and China are in the game; same work ethic as the Japanese. Even India is experiencing their industrial revolution. China and India have a massive pool of labor that will work hard and do a good job just to eat and not be starving out on the street. They'll also work for less because even what they get paid is an upgrade compared to starving in the street. The entitlement mentality of American workers is what's making it hard for us to compete. Even burger flippers want $15 an hour because they think those workforce entry-level jobs are supposed to be living wage jobs; they're not.

There's a lot more to what happened to this country's manufacturing than just price.

Its funny you mention body panel fitment...I work for a Chevy,Buick,GMC dealership and I have cars manufactured in China and USA side by side and the build quality difference is astounding... The American made Lacrosse has horrible build quality according to its body lines, huge gaps on one side, panels nearly touching on the other.. no panels fit or line up correctly at all its terrible.... However the China made Envision is spot on, tight, equal panel lines over the entire vehicle and every single one is like that.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by Glen e

I think this is a very interesting discussion with all sorts of points of view, but I think the reason the Camaro is not doing so well is two things; the market rejecting muscle cars in general, and the fact that this is the first car the GM wanted to compete with the higher cost European sports sedans which sell in larger volumes. In everything you read from GM for the last four years is this chassis is totally different, competes with the euros, and is a much better handling car in addition to the power.

And for whatever reason, the market has rejected that move, and still considers the Camaro a muscle car. I don't have a single friend in the upper middle class or that makes over 100 grand that would consider a Camaro , yet they own every conceivable Mercedes BMW jaguar etc. etc. for years. I think it's almost impossible to "rebrand" a heritage marque like Camaro that has been known for so long to be a muscle car.

Not saying I like it, but I think that's the way this is.

There are still Euro buyers that reject or look down on the Corvette as a viable option and Corvette has been fighting that fight since the 60s. At the end of the day sorry not sorry but the Camaro is still just a Camaro. It might have a model that sets lap records, might be the best handling coupe and lay the smack down on cars costing 2-3 times as much but at the end of the day it's still a Camaro(same goes for Mustang). Also I think those are great performance targets, but Camaro shouldn't try to compete with those cars that IMO is Cadillac's job.

Number 3 has said it numerous times, Camaro is an amazing performance car, easily the best in it's class in the SS and ZL1. But The Camaro is a bad coupe. Not everyone buys these cars for all out performance and blistering lap times and 1/4 mile blasts. Some just like the fun nature of the cars, the styling or simply don't want a sedan/suv/cuv. Problem is there are better alternatives to the Camaro for those buyers. the Mustang is a better coupe, and the Challenger is a much better coupe.

Now I get it there are some people here that don't care about any of that stuff because the car makes you smile. I get it, I understand that 100%. The problem is you are a much smaller % of the market than you think.

I have said this before in threads like this. I live an active lifestyle in the summer months, I have a 6 month old son. When it's time for me to get a new vehicle, I could make a case for the Mustang being a liveable option, the challenger could be a liveable option. There would definitely be some sacrifices and it could be a PITA but I could do it with those two cars. The camaro wouldn't even make it into the discussion and it's a shame. Now I know some of you will see this as blah blah blah don't care ring times 0-60! I get it, but I would be willing to bet there are more buyers like me, than like you.

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by shaffe

Now I get it there are some people here that don't care about any of that stuff because the car makes you smile. I get it, I understand that 100%. The problem is you are a much smaller % of the market than you think.

So is this a problem because people have hard-wired themselves into believing that driving can't possibly be fun? Or is it at least partly on Chevrolet (and the rest) for not even trying to suggest otherwise?

The baseball/hot dogs/apple pie/Chevrolet ad people had this figured out. But as bland as those real people ads come off as being, they might as well be for kitchen appliances.


Norm

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

So is this a problem because people have hard-wired themselves into believing that driving can't possibly be fun? Or is it at least partly on Chevrolet (and the rest) for not even trying to suggest otherwise?

The baseball/hot dogs/apple pie/Chevrolet ad people had this figured out. But as bland as those real people ads come off as being, they might as well be for kitchen appliances.


Norm

I think it's a problem for Chevy because they went to far into catering to a smaller % of buyers who will overlook those other things because of the performance and IMO sales reflect that may have backfired a bit

[cellsafemode]

the camaro has always been a weak seller since the 3rd gen. It's never been a cash cow for Chevy and it makes sense that they wouldn't be trying to make it into one.

These are bragging rights cars. Meant to beat the competition in ways that they can advertise about and this will in turn, boost sales of other vehicles in the lineup just by association. That's why it makes sense to keep making such vehicles.

What constitutes a failure though really depends on the intention ...which we can only guess. Sometimes it's ok to not sell the most... sometimes selling more isn't a sign of being a better car, but rather, just appealing to a larger body of people. And we all know how appealing to the masses == awesome things. Unfortunately, with a publicly traded company, this becomes the driving factor in all decisions...mediocrity reigns at the detriment of greatness ...for the sake of short term sales figures.

[Doc]

Well Ford just upped the ante with the new 2020 Ford Shelby GT500:




Doesn't look too bad either. I'm not a Ford or Mustang fan, but this is a pretty good looking Mustang. Price hasn't been announced yet but it has 700 hp so it'll probably be north of $70k.

Do American manufacturers understand the bulk of the market? Everybody seems to want to swing for the fences except that's not what wins ballgames. It's the steady singles and doubles that fill the bases and brings in the runs.

Trucks and SUVs are constantly being pushed up the scale until they're now almost nothing but truck frames with Cadillac luxury on top of them.

MAN I wish one of the big (or perhaps formerly big) 3 would design and build the mainstream-for-everyone car that looks sporty and fun, and is affordable. Right now it looks like if it happens at all, it'll be Mazda, Hyundai or Kia that might figure it out because they're focused on making a great car instead of making quarterly profits. Ironically they'll do both if they figure it out.

[Boost Creep]

I think safety, emissions, and mpg mandates prevent that from really happening ever again.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by Doc

Well Ford just upped the ante with the new 2020 Ford Shelby GT500:

Attachment 971364
Attachment 971365

Doesn't look too bad either. I'm not a Ford or Mustang fan, but this is a pretty good looking Mustang. Price hasn't been announced yet but it has 700 hp so it'll probably be north of $70k.

Do American manufacturers understand the bulk of the market? Everybody seems to want to swing for the fences except that's not what wins ballgames. It's the steady singles and doubles that fill the bases and brings in the runs.

Trucks and SUVs are constantly being pushed up the scale until they're now almost nothing but truck frames with Cadillac luxury on top of them.

MAN I wish one of the big (or perhaps formerly big) 3 would design and build the mainstream-for-everyone car that looks sporty and fun, and is affordable. Right now it looks like if it happens at all, it'll be Mazda, Hyundai or Kia that might figure it out because they're focused on making a great car instead of making quarterly profits. Ironically they'll do both if they figure it out.

OMG. Are those "flaps" on the front of that GT500?

[90503]

US unions the problem? If so, the alternative is worse. Think about this when you drive your Mexican made vehicle to an economics class...

https://business.financialpost.com/p...ake-40000-suvs

Support US jobs. Boycott the Mexican Blazer.

[cellsafemode]

meh. Look at that stupid mustang with it's side windows taller than your hand. Ridiculous. Why even bother with a door?

[Doc]

I used a photo program to open up the shadows so you can now see more of the front of the Mustang. The cops won't pay ANY attention to this; nope, not at all lol.

[90503]

It needs a Flo-Val in the bumper....

[Doc]

Here's Cadillac's new EV SUV. What's with this obsession vehicle designers seem to have right now with these large open-mouth scooping fronts??