[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by Orangeman13

Do you think the Celica would be brought back in your opinion?

My own opinion? I doubt it.

[waterman]

Originally Posted by Orangeman13

Is this legit?

http://gmauthority.com/blog/2018/08/...he-fbodfather/

A lot of things have changed at GM since late August 2018. Not that I would ever doubt Scott.

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

It’s complicated. [Bill Clinton voice] It depends on what the definition of “working on” is [/Bill Clinton voice].

By the time the 5th Gen refresh became visible publicly (early 2013) work would have already been started on 6th Gen (2016 MY) and, to a lesser degree, 6th Gen refresh (2019 MY). The plan is usually to get at least two product runs off of an architecture. For 5th Gen (Zeta platform) that was 2010-13 plus a mid-cycle refresh for 2014-15. For 6th Gen (Alpha platform) that would be 2016 - 18 with a mid-cycle refresh for 2019-2? So, by the time 6th Gen refresh became visible publicly (early 2018) work would have already begun on the 7th Gen platform, including identifying some potential considerations for the mid-cycle refresh.

Since fuel economy and emissions regulations are sorta known through 2025, GM as a whole has an idea what each vehicle product line needs to contribute to meeting those goals and most product teams have an idea of what technologies they need to be working on integrating into their vehicles.

So, if “working on” means knowing what the fender lines look like and what the headlamp and taillight appearance and technology will be....no. If “working on” means there is a no foolin’, committed, ain’t gonna change commitment to building a particular car at a particular plant at a specific volume range....no. If “workin’ on” means defining the basic geometry elements of length, wheelbase, track, roof configurations, seating configurations, mass targets, initial proposals of powertrain combinations and electrification strategies....yes, that work has started and will continue until and unless someone really important (Barra, Reuss, VP of Planning) says stop.

At the risk of sounding redundant, your feedback/input is always appreciated.

[JaxChris]

It depends on what your definition of "Camaro" is. Al O will be pimping an EV replacement that offers 2 doors, a single heavy duty rear motor with an eLSD and axles as a street variant of the eCOPO idea to sway buyers to EV performance cars. Ford is working on the same thing but will share the Mustang name when it hits the market. My guess is Ford will call it the Mustang-E and will also come out with a Raptor-E as well using hub motors to make ground clearance enormous without raising the vehicle.

Chevy may dirty the Camaro name by putting it on their car, or they could revive another old name to put on it instead. But, either way, the goal is a Tesla Roadster2 competitor that will offer trims up to the level of that vehicle at a price target of 50%. Expect the pure EV sports car from Chevy to cost 50-100k depending on power level desired and 0-60 numbers of 3.5 (50k) to 1.9 (100k) seconds.

The C8 will be the large performance vehicle offering gas and hybrid. Eventually it will be hybrid or fully electric (probably one more generation). The Camaro replacement will likely have a similar interior dimension to the 6th gen but on a shorter Alpha2, since vehicle (hood) length for a V8 with cooling is no longer required.

LGRAP isn't doomed. It will probably be one of the US facilities converted to production of high margin EV's, such as this Camaro replacement. Low margin/price EV models will be going to Mexico. Global EV's will be made in China. Canada loses all native auto manufacturing, just like the Aussies, by 2025. Detroit will lose most of its' presence in future assembly as well because the future of vehicle production uses materials that aren't mined in North America. Importing them all the way to Michigan is costly. More plants will continue moving to the southern states with closer international ports. Legacy combustion models (Silverado) will probably consolidate to Fort Wayne while their hybrid/EV replacements are built elsewhere.

Mark Dickens is just overseeing the idling/shutdown of Team Camaro. Honestly the 2018 ZL1 is the only future collectable in the entire 6th lineup. It has a working automatic on offer, the electronics work, and it is at the top of the performance curve of the entire industry for this decade. We should all be trying to get rid of our SS for a ZL1 as soon as possible and hang on to those forever -- if you don't think a C8 will fit you or your budget.

No matter what consumers want, automakers want reasons to drive up prices and make huge margins. Going EV is that new fad. ICE is going to be a dinosaur. What fossil do you want to keep in the garage?

[Doc]

Originally Posted by JaxChris

It depends on what your definition of "Camaro" is. Al O will be pimping an EV replacement that offers 2 doors, a single heavy duty rear motor with an eLSD and axles as a street variant of the eCOPO idea to sway buyers to EV performance cars. Ford is working on the same thing but will share the Mustang name when it hits the market. My guess is Ford will call it the Mustang-E and will also come out with a Raptor-E as well using hub motors to make ground clearance enormous without raising the vehicle.

Chevy may dirty the Camaro name by putting it on their car, or they could revive another old name to put on it instead. But, either way, the goal is a Tesla Roadster2 competitor that will offer trims up to the level of that vehicle at a price target of 50%. Expect the pure EV sports car from Chevy to cost 50-100k depending on power level desired and 0-60 numbers of 3.5 (50k) to 1.9 (100k) seconds.

The C8 will be the large performance vehicle offering gas and hybrid. Eventually it will be hybrid or fully electric (probably one more generation). The Camaro replacement will likely have a similar interior dimension to the 6th gen but on a shorter Alpha2, since vehicle (hood) length for a V8 with cooling is no longer required.

LGRAP isn't doomed. It will probably be one of the US facilities converted to production of high margin EV's, such as this Camaro replacement. Low margin/price EV models will be going to Mexico. Global EV's will be made in China. Canada loses all native auto manufacturing, just like the Aussies, by 2025. Detroit will lose most of its' presence in future assembly as well because the future of vehicle production uses materials that aren't mined in North America. Importing them all the way to Michigan is costly. More plants will continue moving to the southern states with closer international ports. Legacy combustion models (Silverado) will probably consolidate to Fort Wayne while their hybrid/EV replacements are built elsewhere.

Mark Dickens is just overseeing the idling/shutdown of Team Camaro. Honestly the 2018 ZL1 is the only future collectable in the entire 6th lineup. It has a working automatic on offer, the electronics work, and it is at the top of the performance curve of the entire industry for this decade. We should all be trying to get rid of our SS for a ZL1 as soon as possible and hang on to those forever -- if you don't think a C8 will fit you or your budget.

No matter what consumers want, automakers want reasons to drive up prices and make huge margins. Going EV is that new fad. ICE is going to be a dinosaur. What fossil do you want to keep in the garage?

A lot of the cost is going to come down to batteries; how much will they cost to make and replace when they need replacing?

If one of the "materials that aren't mined in North America" is cobalt, that's about to change. The Idaho Cobalt Project will be the first and only operational cobalt mine in the United States, and it's scheduled to begin producing cobalt in 2020. Test samples show it's higher quality than the cobalt coming out of the DRC (30% of the world's cobalt comes out of Africa), and it won't have any import/export tariffs or duties attached to it. The problem is, automakers aren't the only ones who need cobalt; all the cell phone, laptop and tablet companies do too. Still it has to be cheaper to buy from a U.S. supplier, and would obviously be a much quicker and cheaper process to get it to the battery plants, such as the Giga factory in Carson City, Nevada which is just a few hours away by rail from Idaho.

(Disclaimer: I own stock in ECSIF which owns the Idaho Cobalt Project)

The other issue is; like oil, cobalt is also a finite resource. Question is, which finite resource will we run out of first? What do we have the most of? Oil/gas or cobalt? Environmentalists love to ring the alarm bell because it gives them power, enables them to feel important, and allows them to take staggering amounts of other people's money for their 'cause', but the truth is...battery technology has it's own environmental issues.

I wonder what they'll come up with once they realize they need to ring the dinner...er I mean alarm bell again to "save us" from the evils of batteries. What you wanna bet it goes back to steam? After all, three quarters of the earth is covered in water. ;-)

[waterman]

Originally Posted by JaxChris

It depends on what your definition of "Camaro" is. Al O will be pimping an EV replacement that offers 2 doors, a single heavy duty rear motor with an eLSD and axles as a street variant of the eCOPO idea to sway buyers to EV performance cars. Ford is working on the same thing but will share the Mustang name when it hits the market. My guess is Ford will call it the Mustang-E and will also come out with a Raptor-E as well using hub motors to make ground clearance enormous without raising the vehicle.

Chevy may dirty the Camaro name by putting it on their car, or they could revive another old name to put on it instead. But, either way, the goal is a Tesla Roadster2 competitor that will offer trims up to the level of that vehicle at a price target of 50%. Expect the pure EV sports car from Chevy to cost 50-100k depending on power level desired and 0-60 numbers of 3.5 (50k) to 1.9 (100k) seconds.

The C8 will be the large performance vehicle offering gas and hybrid. Eventually it will be hybrid or fully electric (probably one more generation). The Camaro replacement will likely have a similar interior dimension to the 6th gen but on a shorter Alpha2, since vehicle (hood) length for a V8 with cooling is no longer required.

LGRAP isn't doomed. It will probably be one of the US facilities converted to production of high margin EV's, such as this Camaro replacement. Low margin/price EV models will be going to Mexico. Global EV's will be made in China. Canada loses all native auto manufacturing, just like the Aussies, by 2025. Detroit will lose most of its' presence in future assembly as well because the future of vehicle production uses materials that aren't mined in North America. Importing them all the way to Michigan is costly. More plants will continue moving to the southern states with closer international ports. Legacy combustion models (Silverado) will probably consolidate to Fort Wayne while their hybrid/EV replacements are built elsewhere.

Mark Dickens is just overseeing the idling/shutdown of Team Camaro. Honestly the 2018 ZL1 is the only future collectable in the entire 6th lineup. It has a working automatic on offer, the electronics work, and it is at the top of the performance curve of the entire industry for this decade. We should all be trying to get rid of our SS for a ZL1 as soon as possible and hang on to those forever -- if you don't think a C8 will fit you or your budget.

No matter what consumers want, automakers want reasons to drive up prices and make huge margins. Going EV is that new fad. ICE is going to be a dinosaur. What fossil do you want to keep in the garage?

Wow. Good stuff. Food for thought.

I guess that I am old school; IMHO, EV even in ludicrous mode, though impressive just doesn't have soul. With that said perhaps GM understands that older (not OLD)guys like me, won't be buying to many more cars and are adjusting accordingly. Business and the circle of life. I'm good with that.

Dad and Grandad are/were Corvette guys... I guess to an extent, me too. I have driven many, but have owned none. The numbers never worked out for me and my family.

Stingray, GS the LT1 are awesome in their own right, but I was always coveting a Z06 or ZR1(C6). Both were way out of my price range. Then Chevy dropped the LT4 in a Camaro on the Alpha platform; I was sold, and the kids were out of school and on their own.

Shortly before I pulled the trigger on a ZL1, Al's team introduced the ZLE. A no brainer for me as I was never interested in an auto trans and not too concerned with straight line numbers. In my humble opinion it has a significantly more settled rear end than the Z06 with all of the juice, better cooling and equal, perhaps better grip (multi point rear as opposed to that leaf spring debacle). AND, more affordable world class performance for the hard working American man/woman.

ZL1 as a potential end of the ICE era performance classic??? I like the way that you think. I agree. Time will tell.

FWIW, mine will be driven, she's only a part time garage queen.

I'm off subject, I digress. Business is about numbers and adaptation; I get it. We are unfortunately living in a disposable society... Don't fix it, throw it away and get a new one. Sad. With that said, if GM can give up on and divorce themselves from the sedan (their bread and butter for nearly a century), they can give up on anything. Including our beloved Camaro.

[waterman]

Originally Posted by Doc

A lot of the cost is going to come down to batteries; how much will they cost to make and replace when they need replacing?

If one of the "materials that aren't mined in North America" is cobalt, that's about to change. The Idaho Cobalt Project will be the first and only operational cobalt mine in the United States, and it's scheduled to begin producing cobalt in 2020. Test samples show it's higher quality than the cobalt coming out of the DRC (30% of the world's cobalt comes out of Africa), and it won't have any import/export tariffs or duties attached to it. The problem is, automakers aren't the only ones who need cobalt; all the cell phone, laptop and tablet companies do too. Still it has to be cheaper to buy from a U.S. supplier, and would obviously be a much quicker and cheaper process to get it to the battery plants, such as the Giga factory in Carson City, Nevada which is just a few hours away by rail from Idaho.

(Disclaimer: I own stock in ECSIF which owns the Idaho Cobalt Project)

The other issue is; like oil, cobalt is also a finite resource. Question is, which finite resource will we run out of first? What do we have the most of? Oil/gas or cobalt? Environmentalists love to ring the alarm bell because it gives them power, enables them to feel important, and allows them to take staggering amounts of other people's money for their 'cause', but the truth is...battery technology has it's own environmental issues.

I wonder what they'll come up with once they realize they need to ring the dinner...er I mean alarm bell again to "save us" from the evils of batteries. What you wanna bet it goes back to steam? After all, three quarters of the earth is covered in water. ;-)

Yup! Agreed.

Zero emissions from electrified is a flat out lie. All EV requires a charging source. Some power generators burn Jet A, diesel or coal, some split atoms to produce electricity some use solar or wind; Hardly zero emission.
​
As you have eluded to, the fallout from all of these 1/2 ton batteries will become a disposal/storage nightmare for future generations... as will be the disposal of spent solar panels. Both are extremely toxic. Perhaps they can be buried with spent nuke waste and biological agents. The amount of wear and tear on moving parts and the maintenance costs of wind power per KWs generated are also IMO an unsustainable pipe dream.

I like steam, but you have to burn something to heat up the water.

There is no free lunch.

[V8 Firebird]

Not sure and hear Ford would bring whole EV Mustang. Only sure Ford will bring Hybrid, AWD, and 4-door for future Mustang.

I can accept EV Camaro, but I prefer hybrid Camaro more. GM has good Voltec tech. Making pulg-in hybrid Camaro may be fair and good way for it.

Not sure how much cost for it, but it still has gasoline engine at least.

[V8 Firebird]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

My own opinion? I doubt it.

Although bringing Celica and MR-2 back is still rumor, it seems very likely to happen.

Toyota CEO, Akio Toyotba, is a serious car sport and racing fan. In his
operating, Toyota lineup is going more sporty recently.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by V8 Firebird

Although bringing Celica and MR-2 back is still rumor, it seems very likely to happen.

Toyota CEO, Akio Toyotba, is a serious car sport and racing fan. In his
operating, Toyota lineup is going more sporty recently.

Other than Toyota 86, all of the Toyota RWD car products are on Lexus architectures. So they would either have to use a Lexus architecture (expensive, and all are too big for an MR2) or create a new architecture (very expensive) for a low volume RWD vehicle or share a RWD architecture with another company (BRZ/86, Supra/Z4). If they were planning to do that we (the company I work for now) would have already heard something about that. We heard about the 86 and Supra before the auto show concepts for either. Other than the R&T interview with the Supra Chief Engineer that spurred the Celica / MR2 rumors we’ve heard.....crickets.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by hotlap

I would imagine that they began working on the gen7 Camaro after the launch of the 2016 in the fall of 2015.

- GM has updated the Alpha platform to Alpha 2.
- We have seen camouflage CT5 test cars ....the CTS replacement
- CTS/ATS volume has been so low that LGR plant really needs the Camaro volume to remain feasible. Production of the three car together totaled 71,959 units ...Camaro equals 70.8%!

Attachment 970430
Attachment 970431
Attachment 970432

All that’s said, GM could pull the plug on the North American Cadillac CTx production and just build it in China like the CT6. Kill Camaro.

If we don’t see test gen7 Camaro’s in the next six months, I think it’s canceled and GM is surrendering a 193,521 (2018) unit segment to its rivals instead of competing for it.

Agreed.

Plain and simple despite what anyone wants to say about sales numbers GM needs the Camaro volume at the plant. The Camaro and CT5 are tied at the hip. If one of them goes away, that is when i would start getting worried.

[JaxChris]

Non-toxic or recyclable batteries are going to be the only way that EV's don't lead to our own doom. Batteries today are not much different from the lithium AA's you can buy at the store. They eventually corrode, leak, poison soil and ground water.

Cobalt is definitely finite. But plant and animal life is always dying and seeping oil into the ground -- granted we are pulling it out way faster than things are dying. The most renewable energy source that doesn't require poisoning the soil and water with e-waste is forcing the US to move to E85/E90. The existing oil refineries in the US can pull the 10-15% of gasoline we need to thin out ethanol and corn is easy to make. We already pay farmers not to grow the inedible corn, which E85 is made from, that their land is already accustom to.

That's what should be in these farm bills that are now getting used as political fodder. Instead of subsidies to idle lands, we should look at energy independence. It's a shame too, because more corn fields for fuel means higher greenhouse gas absorption rates and less damage to ozone. E85 has less harmful output than pure gasoline. And more corn fields to provide that E85 could offset the remaining output.

I really don't want to buy an EV or hybrid until battery tech is no longer toxic or unrecyclable -- but the automakers seem determined to give us no choice.

[waterman]

.

[Silverado57]

Originally Posted by JaxChris

...
Chevy may dirty the Camaro name by putting it on their car, or they could revive another old name to put on it instead. ...

Curiously, the Cobalt name is available now.

[Silverado57]

Originally Posted by Doc

A lot of the cost is going to come down to batteries; how much will they cost to make and replace when they need replacing?

There must be some information out there on batteries that have already been replaced.

I just found this. It looks like battery replace fears are unfounded.

https://cleantechnica.com/2018/08/23...n-jb-expected/