[13vertss]

Originally Posted by newmoon

Ouch!

Car and Driver

For 2019, the Mustang GT again makes hay, trampling into the spot vacated by the Camaro, whose transcendent chassis failed to prop up its awful outward visibility, practicality, and looks in the face of withering 10 Best competition.

https://www.caranddriver.com/feature...10best2019ford

Cars that have had significant changes from model year qualify for this. Other then 10 speed auto, nothing has changed with Camaro. That’s why the gt350 wasn’t in also, no changes.

[BlaqWhole]

Based on the comments about outward visibility, yet again, it's a wonder how all of us are still alive and haven't ran our cars off a bridge. LOL!! I can't speak for anyone else, but if GM changed the visibility of this car and it had any impact on how the car looks on the outside and handles then I'd be upset. But either way it doesn't matter. I'll be moving on to Z06s or M5s for my next car anyway!!

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by shaffe

Some very well thought out stuff in there. Some points I agree on others not so much so I guess we will just leave it at that.

I know there will be insane markups on the first GT500's hopefully they don't last long.

I'm just looking at things from the approach of seeing what is different between the manufacturers. And the only thing different is that Chevy has the Vette which the ZL1's price falls in the range of. If I went to buy a ZL1 and OTD it is $69K, and they said they're gonna add $10K to it, then at $79K I'm gonna just buy a Z06 and let that ZL1 sit for some sucker to come along and buy. You already can't use the back seats effectively. So while some who want to stuff a child into the back seat might have no other option, most of us would have the option. The GT350R IS the top dog in the Mustang lineup right now. And nobody who wants a GT350R is gonna settle for even a fully loaded GT. So they have no other option. Same with Hellcats. You can buy a HC for $70K OTD and then have a $10K markup thrown at you...or you can upgrade to the $100K+ Viper, lol!! If you wanted a Charger Hellcat then your only other option in that range is the CTS-V which is still a bit more expensive than a Charger HC even with the markup. SO they had no options either. We are the only ones with options. So while the ZL1 is very well priced, we are not taken advantage of because we can go a different route. Sorry to repeat this all but I felt like delving into it a bit more. And to point out that this is the only difference between GM, FCA, and Ford. In fact, GM has always had more options than the competitors. Even with the SS. By the time you add options to it you're at the back door of a stripped down Stingray. Whereas with the GT after working it up you're still a bit off from the price of a standard GT350.

[shaffe]

That argument though, IMO only works for the brand faithful. Yes if I am buying a ford and won't consider anything else, yeah that holds true because there is nothing slotted above it. However If I am not brand loyal, I can go to Chevy or go to dodge and get something else/better for my money and your argument works the other way that that should drive down markups.

I think it might be a combination of what you said and that the general public and the buying public see the top end mustangs (especially when the Shelby name is on them) as more "special" than a Camaro and that's why they still get marked up. I am going off of of memory but I don't remember the Mach-1's ever getting marked up, I don't remember the 01 or 08/09 Bullitt's getting marked up, and I know the 03/04 Cobra's didn't get marked up.
Then the 07GT500 was the first mustang I remember really being something people paid over sticker for, and that went on until after 09 because the rumor was it was going to be a 3 year model run

[Idaho2018GTPremium]

Originally Posted by 13vertss

Cars that have had significant changes from model year qualify for this. Other then 10 speed auto, nothing has changed with Camaro. That’s why the gt350 wasn’t in also, no changes.

Huh? The Camaro was refreshed for 2019. The mustang GT is exactly the same as 2018. If you recall Camaro was in it for '18 and there were no changes from 17 to 18.

[13vertss]

Originally Posted by Idaho2018GTPremium

Huh? The Camaro was refreshed for 2019. The mustang GT is exactly the same as 2018. If you recall Camaro was in it for '18 and there were no changes from 17 to 18.

2016, Camaro, 2017 ZL1, 2018 ZL1 1LE were the changes, so there were significant changes. They gave the award to the Bullit, which is different then the 2018 GT.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by shaffe

That argument though, IMO only works for the brand faithful. Yes if I am buying a ford and won't consider anything else, yeah that holds true because there is nothing slotted above it. However If I am not brand loyal, I can go to Chevy or go to dodge and get something else/better for my money and your argument works the other way that that should drive down markups.

I think it might be a combination of what you said and that the general public and the buying public see the top end mustangs (especially when the Shelby name is on them) as more "special" than a Camaro and that's why they still get marked up. I am going off of of memory but I don't remember the Mach-1's ever getting marked up, I don't remember the 01 or 08/09 Bullitt's getting marked up, and I know the 03/04 Cobra's didn't get marked up.
Then the 07GT500 was the first mustang I remember really being something people paid over sticker for, and that went on until after 09 because the rumor was it was going to be a 3 year model run

Are there Mustangs other than the Shelby that are getting marked up?

Of the Shelby’s that are getting marked up, are they extremely limited (R) or falsely presented as limited (15-16 non-R that turned into 17,18...)?

Are the people that are paying mark ups on limited production, expensive GT350Rs really “the general public”?

Are they paying mark ups because “Mustangs” are so “special” or are they fans scooping up rare, limited production cars looking at them as the next collectible?

[Idaho2018GTPremium]

Originally Posted by 13vertss

2016, Camaro, 2017 ZL1, 2018 ZL1 1LE were the changes, so there were significant changes. They gave the award to the Bullit, which is different then the 2018 GT.

The award was to the GT and Bullitt:


"For 2019, the Mustang GT again makes hay, trampling into the spot vacated by the Camaro, whose transcendent chassis failed to prop up its awful outward visibility, practicality, and looks in the face of withering 10Best competition. Why now? Though eligible for 10Best last year, the updated-for-'18 Mustang wasn't available in time for testing."

Later they also mention the Bullitt. Anyway, the 18/19 GT beat out the 2019 Camaro in this award.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by shaffe

That argument though, IMO only works for the brand faithful. Yes if I am buying a ford and won't consider anything else, yeah that holds true because there is nothing slotted above it. However If I am not brand loyal, I can go to Chevy or go to dodge and get something else/better for my money and your argument works the other way that that should drive down markups.

I think it might be a combination of what you said and that the general public and the buying public see the top end mustangs (especially when the Shelby name is on them) as more "special" than a Camaro and that's why they still get marked up. I am going off of of memory but I don't remember the Mach-1's ever getting marked up, I don't remember the 01 or 08/09 Bullitt's getting marked up, and I know the 03/04 Cobra's didn't get marked up.
Then the 07GT500 was the first mustang I remember really being something people paid over sticker for, and that went on until after 09 because the rumor was it was going to be a 3 year model run

Let's look at this another way. What is soo special about the GT350R that people will pay $10K and, in some cases, $20K over MSRP for? An "experience"? LOL! I'm not trying to be a smartass. I can see paying $5K over if a car is something special and rare and there is no other car on that level and you want a Mustang. Like with the ZR1. But I cannot see someone paying $20K extra just because they feel the GT350R is special. And if it was as special as people thought or think, then why are people getting rid of them, trading them in, etc? Especially after only a year or two. If I threw an extra $10K - $20K on a car then I sure as hell would hold on to it for quite a while. But that isn't the case with the R. If they're selling used at what the MSRP was new, then that means a loss of money. Not thru depreciation but a loss nonetheless. So why are people getting rid of these cars that they thought was special enough to pay a markup on a year or two ago??

The only thing that makes any sense is not that the car has some special appeal to it, but that they thought it would be a limited run and would increase in value. Like the Demon. Or, like I said, people who wanted the top dog Mustang and were not gonna settle for a GT had no other option. Like the Hellcat. The ZL1 fits into neither of these categories. The Hellcat and Demon did. People were paying up to $40K markups on Demons because they thought it would double or even triple in value. People thought the same thing about the Hellcat and in the case of the HC, there was no other performance option from Dodge. Plus people were thinking about the Ford GT which dramatically increased in value. So a lot of them were thinking that the GT350R would have a similar increase.

[Vtor_ZL1]

That was early on.. now you can get them at sticker or BELOW.


and IF you pay it.. it's on YOU. that means there is a DEMAND for them. They are roped off.. we don't see same treatment from Chevy. GT350's get shipped in specific locations on the truck.. to minimize getting underside dirty! Big giant tag gets plastered on the door glass.


No test drives!


First ZL1 we went to see, "oh hey, here's the key, go for spin."


Conclusion: there are people who PAID and if they are still paying.. fools and their moneys soon part ways.

[13vertss]

Originally Posted by Idaho2018GTPremium

The award was to the GT and Bullitt:


"For 2019, the Mustang GT again makes hay, trampling into the spot vacated by the Camaro, whose transcendent chassis failed to prop up its awful outward visibility, practicality, and looks in the face of withering 10Best competition. Why now? Though eligible for 10Best last year, the updated-for-'18 Mustang wasn't available in time for testing."

Later they also mention the Bullitt. Anyway, the 18/19 GT beat out the 2019 Camaro in this award.

The 18, 19 GT had a significant upgrade to there refresh compared to the 15-17. The 2019 Camaro refresh was cosmetic, and a 10 speed if you want the auto. There was no significant change.

[BRMike]

Originally Posted by 13vertss

2016, Camaro, 2017 ZL1, 2018 ZL1 1LE were the changes, so there were significant changes. They gave the award to the Bullit, which is different then the 2018 GT.

I'm not sure this is correct. The C7 Grand Sport is on the list for the third straight year. There have been virtually no changes to the car since it was introduced for 2017. I don't think a car has to be new or significantly updated for Car and Driver's 10 Best. Now, Motor Trend on the other hand does only consider new or significantly updated cars for its Car of the Year award.

[13vertss]

Originally Posted by BRMike

I'm not sure this is correct. The C7 Grand Sport is on the list for the third straight year. There have been virtually no changes to the car since it was introduced for 2017. I don't think a car has to be new or significantly updated for Car and Driver's 10 Best. Now, Motor Trend on the other hand does only consider new or significantly updated cars for its Car of the Year award.

It was the GS and Z06, where last year it was the GS. But if they don’t look at changes, why did they write this?

The GT350 was, thanks to its 2017 win, but failed to retain the award; its lack of changes rendered it ineligible this year.

[Idaho2018GTPremium]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

For the record, the GT350R appeal has diminished. They are not commanding these massive markups anymore. In fact, they aren't commanding ANY markups at all. So that reinforces that there is not anything special about the car. Same engine. Same options. Maybe some extras added on. Same CF wheels. Same trans. It is virtually the same car. So why are they not getting the markups now like they were when they first showed up?

You say "for the record" as if you are authority on the subject...It's not that there's nothing special about the car. There's plenty of unique items on the GT350R compared to most sports cars and a standard GT Premium. It's appeal may have diminished more than likely because Ford has all but announced the GT500 and everyone knows it's going to be supercharged. That'll put a damper on a GT350/GT350R. Ford probably should have upped the power for '19 for all GT350/GT350R to ~550-560 hp to help reduce the natural slump in sales before the GT500 comes out, ala 1996 Corvette with the LT4, prior to the new 1997 Vette.