[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by newmoon

....
On the flip side folks didn't believe the ZL1 was worth the msrp thus forcing Chevy or dealers to discount the vehicles. Which is great if you are in the market for a ZL1.

This did not really happen anywhere near as much as folks on Mustang6 like to claim. Some DEALERS discounted them, but most did not and GM never discounted them EXCEPT in a couple promotions where they were not specifically excluded from promotions for all Camaros. Personally, I can only recall two promotions on Camaros, one included ZL1, the other excluded ZL1. Used 2017 ZL1s are still drawing mid $50k numbers. 2018s are listing for more. Considering new ones start around $65k, that's not too bad a drop off.

https://www.cargurus.com/Cars/invent...787_isFeatured

https://www.cargurus.com/Cars/invent...ting=225410618

https://www.cargurus.com/Cars/invent...ting=217588993


https://www.chevrolet.com/performanc...d-price/config

[newmoon]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

This did not really happen anywhere near as much as folks on Mustang6 like to claim. Some DEALERS discounted them, but most did not and GM never discounted them EXCEPT in a couple promotions where they were not specifically excluded from promotions for all Camaros. Personally, I can only recall two promotions on Camaros, one included ZL1, the other excluded ZL1. Used 2017 ZL1s are still drawing mid $50k numbers. 2018s are listing for more. Considering new ones start around $65k, that's not too bad a drop off.

https://www.cargurus.com/Cars/invent...787_isFeatured

https://www.cargurus.com/Cars/invent...ting=225410618

https://www.cargurus.com/Cars/invent...ting=217588993


https://www.chevrolet.com/performanc...d-price/config

In your 1st example $53,995 the car has lost approx $8,000 - $10,000 in year one. 2017 GT350R prices are averaging in the low to mid $70,000 range, or basically still MSRP or above. Thats a pretty big gap.

[13vertss]

Originally Posted by newmoon

In your 1st example $53,995 the car has lost approx $8,000 - $10,000 in year one. 2017 GT350R prices are averaging in the low to mid $70,000 range, or basically still MSRP or above. Thats a pretty big gap.

You cant compare a very limited build car like the R to a ZL1 and compare values. the zl1 is compared to the reg gt350.

[newmoon]

Originally Posted by 13vertss

You cant compare a very limited build car like the R to a ZL1 and compare values. the zl1 is compared to the reg gt350.

I agree the better comparison would be the R to the ZL1-1LE, but I am not sure they are faring much better. Also please understand I am only stating the above in response to Blaq's statment that the R's values have fallen to 30-40k and they were terrible investments.

Bang for the buck no doubt the ZL1 is the best option out there especially used.

[ST1LE]

Originally Posted by newmoon

In your 1st example $53,995 the car has lost approx $8,000 - $10,000 in year one. 2017 GT350R prices are averaging in the low to mid $70,000 range, or basically still MSRP or above. Thats a pretty big gap.

Originally Posted by 13vertss

You cant compare a very limited build car like the R to a ZL1 and compare values. the zl1 is compared to the reg gt350.

Correct, ZL1's and Non-R GT350's are seeing the same $8,000-$10,000 drop and worse in some cases for the GT350.

Used 350's are HARD to sell. There are SOOOOO many available, over 200 2017's alone. That's filtered for cars with no previous issues or accidents too. Can filter even further by single owner cars and there are still 153 GT350's available.

Playing the resale value game with ZL1 vs GT350 is not a good idea.

[whiteboyblues2001]

Originally Posted by newmoon

In your 1st example $53,995 the car has lost approx $8,000 - $10,000 in year one. 2017 GT350R prices are averaging in the low to mid $70,000 range, or basically still MSRP or above. Thats a pretty big gap.

It's not really a fair comparison to only include the R model and not the regular GT350, given the limited production numbers. BUT, if you do only want to talk about the R model, you have to include the ADM's that folks paid (ADM's were and still are, MUCH higher on the R model). So, in reality, they still lost a bunch of money (whatever the ADM was at least).

But seriously, let's not forget about the fools who paid $10k-$20k over for a 2016, and are now going for mid-40's to low 50's. Ouch, that's gotta hurt! Expecially for the ones who put their car in the garge as a colector item. All that polishing with a diaper. Well, at least they can take it to the track and have some fun (if they got the one with the coolers).

[whiteboyblues2001]

Originally Posted by newmoon

Bang for the buck no doubt the ZL1 is the best option out there especially used.

Don't sleep on the SS 1LE for bang/buck. New or used, you get a ton for your money.

[ST1LE]

Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001

Don't sleep on the SS 1LE for bang/buck. New or used, you get a ton for your money.

Agreed, the 1LE used is approx $20K less than a ZL1. GT350 speed, GM reliability, all for low to mid 30's.

INSANE value!

[newmoon]

Originally Posted by ST1LE

Agreed, the 1LE used is approx $20K less than a ZL1. GT350 speed, GM reliability, all for low to mid 30's.

INSANE value!

At those prices I agree, a lightly used 1LE is probably the best value especially if track racing is consideration.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by newmoon

….

On the flip side folks didn't believe the ZL1 was worth the msrp thus forcing Chevy or dealers to discount the vehicles. Which is great if you are in the market for a ZL1.

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

This did not really happen anywhere near as much as folks on Mustang6 like to claim. Some DEALERS discounted them, but most did not and GM never discounted them EXCEPT in a couple promotions where they were not specifically excluded from promotions for all Camaros. Personally, I can only recall two promotions on Camaros, one included ZL1, the other excluded ZL1. Used 2017 ZL1s are still drawing mid $50k numbers. 2018s are listing for more. Considering new ones start around $65k, that's not too bad a drop off.

https://www.cargurus.com/Cars/invent...787_isFeatured

https://www.cargurus.com/Cars/invent...ting=225410618

https://www.cargurus.com/Cars/invent...ting=217588993


https://www.chevrolet.com/performanc...d-price/config

Originally Posted by newmoon

In your 1st example $53,995 the car has lost approx $8,000 - $10,000 in year one. 2017 GT350R prices are averaging in the low to mid $70,000 range, or basically still MSRP or above. Thats a pretty big gap.

I could care less about the gap. I was just pointing out the error in your statement about ZL1 being discounted by GM because people didn't believe they are worth the MSRP. Based on what 2-yr old ZL1 is listing for, they could not have been discounted much. You and BlaqWhole can have fun debating the gap.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by ST1LE

That 2017 is no R.

Edit: Neither are R's.

They're both listed as "R" so that is what I went by. I don't know enough about what to look for as far as differences (nor do I care to know) to be able to distinguish between them just from looking at them. If I was to buy one, then I would have looked them up and seen if it really is an R or not. But anyway, I guess they aren't.

Originally Posted by newmoon

I agree the better comparison would be the R to the ZL1-1LE, but I am not sure they are faring much better. Also please understand I am only stating the above in response to Blaq's statment that the R's values have fallen to 30-40k and they were terrible investments.

I looked back to find where I said the R was $30K-$40K and all I could find is where I said the non-R was that price used. So where did I say the R was that low? If anything I said the R was High $40K and low $50K and listed examples of such. And I stated that it dropped to the same value as the ZL1 is and that the non-R was around the same price as a used 5th Gen ZL1.

They ARE terrible investments. Markups averaged $10K if not more. So if they are selling used at MSRP then although they didn't lose value technically speaking, the buyer still lost around the same amount of money as those of us who have ZL1s that depreciated by $10K. On average. Like I said, value, price, MSRP, all of that means nothing if the buyer cannot get the car for the listed price. From a buyer's standpoint. I could be ridiculous and pay $20K ADM for a 350R, then turn around and claim that it is still worth MSRP...does that mean I didn't lose $20K?

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

You and BlaqWhole can have fun debating the gap.

Well I'm on formal forum-warning so I won't be debating much of anything anymore so I don't get forum-evicted. So sure, the ZL1 can't sell, drops value like a brick, is slow for it's HP/TQ rating, has poor visibility, costs too much, nobody is willing to pay MSRP on them, and whatever jazz people wanna think. Shame on us who paid $65K-$70K for these cars...

[BlaqWhole]

The good thing about depreciation and value is that at least we can get cars that perform on Supercar levels for extremely cheap since dealerships are basically throwing them at us with deep discounts and they're dropping like the Titanic. The Z06 for example, you can get a used one for around $60K. Even the 3LZs are around that price and maybe slightly more than that. For that price and for what it can do stock without having to void your warranty I'd say that is the best used value out of just about every car out there. Well maybe the C6 ZR1 is a better deal slightly. But still. If the only consideration is performance, then Chevy's lineup has the best bang for the buck out of stock untouched unmodded used cars that you can get with a warranty intact.

[Fraxum]

Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001

Don't sleep on the SS 1LE for bang/buck. New or used, you get a ton for your money.

Agreed, but even a better value is the standard SS. It is a great track car and with better tires, except for a little more fade prone brakes and lacking the ability to jump curbing gracefully is not far off the SS 1LE at the track. On the street my 16 SS handling was very comparable to my ZL1 which is a mirror of the SS 1LE.

Unless tracking is a priority the SS is the car to buy for pure performance value IMO. Compared to a Rustang you have to buy the PP1 to even get close and it still lacks the on track cooling of the SS.

Is there a better performance car buy at $28-32K on the planet over a lightly used SS?

Still Dodge gets all the eyeballs of the public and Mustangs just sell mainly because people know the name and the Mustang has had an uninterrupted production run. And it looks great and is fun to own and drive like all of the big three.

As for me there is no other car I would rather own than my unwanted A10 ZL1. To me it's magic. I don't know how GM built a car so good at the ZL1 price. And while we know it's one of the top global performers, it is also a very comfortable long distance GT. I spent 5 days and 2,500 miles in it and loved every minute. And the A10 made me give up shifting and I enjoy driving the Z around even more for it. It is ALWAYS in the right gear and the Performance mode is a tap of the pedal away.

As for discounting ZL1s, last spring, except for the odd ZL1 1LE every ZL1 I found within 300 miles of my house was on sale. I got $9K off my almost $70K ZL1. There were a number of cars on the lot for a while. They had the bigger discounts. But $3-4K was the average.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

That says more about the customers than anything else. But it's probably for the same reason people paid premiums for Hellcats. They thought it was gonna retain value or increase in value. People thought they were gonna see Ford GT type increases in value. Same with the Demon. One guy was bragging that he got his with "only" a $40K markup, lol!! He said they were gonna triple in value. We all know that ain't happening. At least not for another 20 years. And even then inflation will make sure you're not profiting anyway. But I digress. Ford guys all thought the Shelby would retain value and it isn't. Us ZL1 guys, we learned from the Dodge guy's mistakes and refused to pay markups. Now get this...if the ZL1 was $75K MSRP, I would still have bought one. But I was not going to give a dealership an extra $5K to sell it to me. That is just stupid as hell. If I was a Ford guy I would not have paid a markup for the Shelby. Not on your life. And if I was a Dodge guy I would not have paid a markup for a Hellcat.

Cool story is that I actually considered buying a ZR1. The dealership I got my ZL1 from had a ZR1 come in at $120K MSRP. They wanted $5K markup. I asked the guy who sold me the ZL1 if there was any way they would drop the markup. I got a solid "no". So I said thanks but I'll pass. It isn't about what the car is worth. Based on the performance and standard options alone in comparison to the competition we all know the ZL1 is a hell of a deal and is worth much more than we're getting them for. But none of us will give money to a greedy dealership to buy one. It's a GM mentality kinda thing I guess.

BTW a good friend of mine bought a non-R GT350 after arguing them down to just a $5K markup. He said it was the stupidest car buying decision he ever made. Traded it in a year later for a 3LZ Z06. LOL!!

See but the problem with that argument about it's more the customers is with these "high end models" its more than just fans of the brand buying the cars. I am sure a solid % are hardcore Ford Fans but we don't know. Some people just have to much freaking money and don't care. My point was to @hotlap who said if Ford built more they wouldn't be as rare. I posted numbers that showed the 350 had quite a few more cars out there, but in some cases still commanded a premium. Does that mean the market/dealers just view it as a hotter commodity or is it just more desirable? I don't know and would love to hear some insight other than It's just the ford customers.

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

The good thing about depreciation and value is that at least we can get cars that perform on Supercar levels for extremely cheap since dealerships are basically throwing them at us with deep discounts and they're dropping like the Titanic. The Z06 for example, you can get a used one for around $60K. Even the 3LZs are around that price and maybe slightly more than that. For that price and for what it can do stock without having to void your warranty I'd say that is the best used value out of just about every car out there. Well maybe the C6 ZR1 is a better deal slightly. But still. If the only consideration is performance, then Chevy's lineup has the best bang for the buck out of stock untouched unmodded used cars that you can get with a warranty intact.

Any one who buys these cars as an investment is fooling themselves. The R may be worth something in 30-40 years, the Z/28 as well. But that is great news for the second hand consumer! They can get some amazing machines for incredible prices.


Oh and since we were talking about the GT500 earlier, it seems like it will be fully unveiled at the NAIAS in January