[KingLT1]

I have been running e85 for 6-8 months and the blend has been 78-79% every time I fuel up. I'll take 2.17 a gallon pump e85 over high dollar race fuel for a street car. Track car, then race fuel makes sense. I don't put much stock in dyno numbers either. It was just a reference point to make a comparison.

[TJay74]

Originally Posted by KingLT1

OP engine has forged pistons.

You don't need meth for if you are willing to pony up for the fuel system parts. LT4 injectors and HPFP are good for 620whp give or take on E85. Jenetty documented this. If you use the LPE big bore then you can get up around 680whp on E85. ADM performance documented this with a 1le SS M6. This is with the stock cam...add a bigger fuel lobe cam like the OP has done and you can make 700+ with just the LT4 stuff on E85. LPE big bore is worth another 10% or 60whp of fuel headroom.

93 pump fuel hits a octane wall at 700whp, so 91 octane will be less. Stock fuel system is absolute max at 580whp give or take on pump fuel with FI. LT4 parts net another 80-100hp of fuel headroom. Again the issue you will run into with pump fuel is octane limitation and the high compression of the LT1. You will run into detonation issues...that is probably why your local shop said it needs meth.

I would buy the LT4 injectors + LPE big bore and run E85(e60 is really all you need if you want to mix it) or LT4 setup and a FI cam...keep the boost around 8-9psi... it should have plenty of fuel headroom and live a long life with correct tuning. Power should be in the 660whp range with the stock cam or 720 with FI cam. The cam setup would be pushing the limits of the stock pistons and precise tuning will be critical. E85 and high compression are a match made in heaven. Makes more power and consistent power with E85 on less boost then pump fuel. Take the same setup on 93 and switch it to E85, power will increase 60-70whp. It also has a much wider tuning window and more room for error. Notice most LT1's that have blown up are pushing stock fuel systems on 93. Food for thought.

I still run E85 in the car now, shops said up to E20 would be fine and still allow enough headroom. I accidently pushed it to E40 couple of weeks ago and the car still ran great.

I dont want anymore than 650rwhp range on the stock pistons, call me a sissy for not wanting to push it but I wanted a more conservative tune until the time comes at my decision to change the piston/rods out and the cam/AFM stuff.

So since I have a 1LE I already have the LT4 in-tank pump, so adding the LT4 HPFP and the injectors should be able to run on 91 alone of even up to 91 E60 and still produce the same power levels I have now without the need for the meth injection?

Lately I have honestly toyed with the idea of pulling the PC D1SC setup off of the car. Then put in forged pistons/rods, non-AFM cam with the delete kit and better springs, ported heads and shoot for 600rwhp N/A.

I like the PC setup, there are some quirks though that I dont like and that cant be fixed without spending another $1k to convert it over to the cog drive system.

[KingLT1]

LT4 fuel setup on e60 would be good for 620ish. Dynos vary. Maybe a little more. I am not sure the octane limits for 91. If you are having belt slip issues, you might go back to a bigger pulley, lower boost and run full e85. It will make the same power. Remember less boost also reduces fuel system demand.

I'm planning on doing a Whipple with LT4 injectors, LPE pump, and E85. Gonna run the supplied 3.5 pulley and go from there. I am not worried about a power number. I may drop back to a 3.625 depending on traction. I want useable power on the street. When I drug a 850whp Hell cat from a dig this past summer because all he did was smoke the tires, It changed my perspective on things a little. Everybody gets caught up in power numbers. I am more concerned about making the car put the power to the ground. That is why I am still bolt-ons...still getting my current setup sorted and tuning dialed before I throw more power at it.

N/A is a good option too...for me it's either PD blower or Heads/Cam NA setup. I have had Procharger stuff in the past and they are ok. After driving my brothers C7Z I was sold on PD. I like the Maggie but couldn't pass up the stellar price I got on the Whipple.

[Drsagacity]

Originally Posted by TJay74

I still run E85 in the car now, shops said up to E20 would be fine and still allow enough headroom. I accidently pushed it to E40 couple of weeks ago and the car still ran great.

I dont want anymore than 650rwhp range on the stock pistons, call me a sissy for not wanting to push it but I wanted a more conservative tune until the time comes at my decision to change the piston/rods out and the cam/AFM stuff.

So since I have a 1LE I already have the LT4 in-tank pump, so adding the LT4 HPFP and the injectors should be able to run on 91 alone of even up to 91 E60 and still produce the same power levels I have now without the need for the meth injection?

Lately I have honestly toyed with the idea of pulling the PC D1SC setup off of the car. Then put in forged pistons/rods, non-AFM cam with the delete kit and better springs, ported heads and shoot for 600rwhp N/A.

I like the PC setup, there are some quirks though that I dont like and that cant be fixed without spending another $1k to convert it over to the cog drive system.

Well, think about this.

You can definitely run 550-600whp on the stock LT1 fuel system.

If you add the injectors and the hpfp, your limitation will be the cam. If you don't have a bigger fuel lobe, you can't fuel into the motor. Once you add the cam, you can run up to 750-780whp on the LT4 fuel system+cam (with voltage booster on the A8). I have a conservative tune, no knock running 12psi. My torque curve looks like a table and I am running straight pump e85...with no alky injection. As I stated, I found the end of the fuel system on e85 and it was the injectors. Simply put the hpfp and the in-tank pump (with a voltage booster) are holding rock solid. The injectors simply run out of pulse width.

I am comfortable saying that with a PD blower we will probably run out of fuel earlier than a centri blower simply because we are running peak boost through the entire RPM range. I would bet the injectors on pump e85 run out of time somewhere between 750-780whp.

You can either use race fuel that doesn't require as much capacity, or you can use 93/e85+ Alky to reduce the amount of capacity you need. In either case, we will see the LT4 fuel system will run to the 850-900whp range.

[Drsagacity]

Originally Posted by KingLT1

I have been running e85 for 6-8 months and the blend has been 78-79% every time I fuel up. I'll take 2.17 a gallon pump e85 over high dollar race fuel for a street car. Track car, then race fuel makes sense. I don't put much stock in dyno numbers either. It was just a reference point to make a comparison.

I am not sure I understand what you are saying. Are you saying without a cam?

You can run 85% e with low boost, no problems. Race fuel and e85 have approximately the same octane. Let's say that they are both in the 101-105 range. Similarly 93+alky should be a similar octane level too.

I was running close to 80% e with 8psi and over 700whp. With that low boost configuration, I could run e85 or 93 octane with absolutely 0 concerns about fuel.

[Drsagacity]

Originally Posted by laynlo15

Much easier if you drag race like I do just to stick with race fuel and meth injection. I don't have to worry about E whatever each week end and less worries about running out of fuel. I don't really care what the dyno says, its what the time slip says and how well the chassis works. Obviously the dyno is a tool for tuning and I've had lots of guys post 800 rwhp and can't post decent numbers at the drag strip compared the hp they are making on the dyno. So E may not be for me as it is others. I love smell of race fuel and it always made the same.

I bet your perspective will change soon enough.

You will be running in the mid 700whp range with pump e if you don't use your alky injection at all.

That will be good enough for you to run into the 9's with pump e and no alky injection. At that point, you could use alky injection for the track just for cooling purposes because you wouldn't need it from an octane perspective.

Did you add the voltage booster or are you just running the big bore pump? I thought you were just running the BB pump. It will be interesting to see if the big bore pump runs out of room before your injectors.

The thing is, I bet you could run 10psi on the 80mm pulley with pump e85...you will be around 730whp and I bet you could run 9's all day long. It wouldn't surprise me if you could run 8psi at 700whp and run into the 9's too.

[laynlo15]

I couldn't run the BBP with the new cam, went with the LT4 pump. Will do the in tank Lt4 pump this winter sometime and maybe a boost a pump. Gotta few months to get it ready for next spring. My data logging with the 80mm pulley is only round 10 lbs of boost. I'll get a few miles more miles on it and switch to the 75 and get it dialed in with that pulley and probably run about 12 lbs to start the year out.

[KingLT1]

Originally Posted by Drsagacity

I am not sure I understand what you are saying. Are you saying without a cam?

You can run 85% e with low boost, no problems. Race fuel and e85 have approximately the same octane. Let's say that they are both in the 101-105 range. Similarly 93+alky should be a similar octane level too.

I was running close to 80% e with 8psi and over 700whp. With that low boost configuration, I could run e85 or 93 octane with absolutely 0 concerns about fuel.

Yes without a cam.

According to Jenetty you can make around 600-620whp on e85 with LT4 fuel system. He documented this in his Whipple thread.

ADM performance documented on a 1LE SS with a LT4 blower swap making 620whp on E85 with the LT4 stuff. Then they went from 620whp with the LT4 HPFP, up to 680whp by swapping to the LPE hpfp.

From what I have seen you can run 93 octane at 700whp with LT4 fuel system and a bigger fuel lobe cam, but the issue will be octane wall and detonation will become a issue. Jenetty also documented this. That is why they like to mix about a E50-E60 ratio for octane because Ted doesn't like to use meth systems.

[Drsagacity]

Originally Posted by laynlo15

I couldn't run the BBP with the new cam, went with the LT4 pump. Will do the in tank Lt4 pump this winter sometime and maybe a boost a pump. Gotta few months to get it ready for next spring. My data logging with the 80mm pulley is only round 10 lbs of boost. I'll get a few miles more miles on it and switch to the 75 and get it dialed in with that pulley and probably run about 12 lbs to start the year out.

We were running out of low pressure fuel pump before we added the BAP and that was with the LT4 in-tank pump. Once we added the voltage booster with the in-tank pump, we were perfect.

Yes.
85mm - 8psi
80mm - 10psi
75mm - 12psi
70mm - on the bench until summer...out of injector.

Since you are spraying alky, you can probably demand less fuel...but once you have the in-tank and voltage booster, you won’t need alky until you go to the 70mm unless it's just for cooling since you make consecutive runs.

[Drsagacity]

Originally Posted by KingLT1

Yes without a cam.

According to Jenetty you can make around 600-620whp on e85 with LT4 fuel system. He documented this in his Whipple thread.

ADM performance documented on a 1LE SS with a LT4 blower swap making 620whp on E85 with the LT4 stuff. Then they went from 620whp with the LT4 HPFP, up to 680whp by swapping to the LPE hpfp.

From what I have seen you can run 93 octane at 700whp with LT4 fuel system and a bigger fuel lobe cam, but the issue will be octane wall and detonation will become a issue. Jenetty also documented this. That is why they like to mix about a E50-E60 ratio for octane because Ted doesn't like to use meth systems.

Yeah. That makes sense. In my opinion, it’s completely illogical to do the fuel upgrades without the cam. At the initial level, with 93 octane and the straight LT1 system you are at 575whp. No way it’s worth adding the fuel system for 25-30whp. Without the cam, you just can’t get enough fuel in the motor.

700whp on 93...maybe. If you have access to e, again, sounds like a bad idea. Instead you can dial back the boost to 8psi with e85 and run 700whp (you would need 10psi on 93 octane to get 700whp). My guess is 700whp is about the octane wall for 93 octane.

Ted’s Super Street Brawler package with 8psi on the Maggie simply can’t be beat. 8 psi and you will be running over 700whp through the A8. In perspective, that’s enough to run a 9 sec quarter mile (1SS Coupe with Drag pack) on pump e85 and 8 psi.

At that level, you really don’t even have to add rods and pistons and with Ted’s tune you should be safe.

[KingLT1]

I don't think it's illogical at all. Not everybody wants to tear into their engine. Correct 575ish whp is just absolute max for the stock fuel system on 93. The Maggie base setup is 550whp. Add nothing but E85 and LT4 fuel system and you are at 620whp at the same boost level.... 65whp gain.

You don't need a cam to get more fuel into the motor. I just posted twice now ADM performance making 680whp with the stock cam on E85 using LT4 injectors and LPE pump. That is 180whp more then what the stock system will support on E85(basically you cant even run e85 with boost on the stock fuel system) and roughly 60whp more then what the LT4 pump will support with E85 on a stock cam. The LT4 hpfp is 800.00, the LPE pump is 1500.00. so an extra 700.00 for 60whp more fuel headroom. A cam swap kit cost 1500.00 plus you still got to buy the pump. Now you are 2300.00 in parts(not including injectors or low side)...who is doing the work? That cam install gonna end up costing substantially more with labor unless you do it yourself. So cam and LT4 parts to make 700-720whp on E85, or stock cam and LPE big bore to make 660-680whp. For the cost difference, the stock cam/LPE BB setup seems like the more logical approach unless you do the forged Pistons while it's apart so you can turn it up further.

So for me it's only logical to do the cam if you are going to do the Pistons since power is up in the range where the factory piston longevity becomes hit or miss and the engine is already apart. And now you just added a couple thousand dollars more to the cost of the build. I would rather keep the stock motor in tact for now with a little less power, then build a motor when the time comes and do rods, pistons, cam, and stud the mains. Jmo

So to break it down:

Whipple- 6k
LPE big bore-1500.00
LT4 injectors- 500.00
ZL1 intank- 140.00
JMS booster- 400.00
Install-2000.00
Tune- 500.00
--------------------
Total-$11,040.00 for 660-680 whp on E85

or

cam kit- 1500.00
Labor- 2000.00
LT4 pump instead of LPE- -700.00
---------------------
Total- 14,200.00 for 700-720whp on E85

or

forged drop in pistons- 1200.00
labor(another 500.00? since the engine is mostly apart)
---------------------
Total- 16,900.00 for 760whp on E85(now at injector limits unless switching to race fuel?)


So now we are now at 5860.00 more then the basically stock motor/stock cam setup to make another 80-100whp reliably on E85. And then we come to the point, do we add the 3500.00 fuel injectors, or run high dollar race fuel to turn it up and break 800? Then when it's all said and done, how much of the power will ever make it to the pavement and not turn into tire smoke?

[Drsagacity]

Originally Posted by KingLT1

I don't think it's illogical at all. Not everybody wants to tear into their engine. Correct 575ish whp is just absolute max for the stock fuel system on 93. The Maggie base setup is 550whp. Add nothing but E85 and LT4 fuel system and you are at 620whp at the same boost level.... 65whp gain.

You don't need a cam to get more fuel into the motor. I just posted twice now ADM performance making 680whp with the stock cam on E85 using LT4 injectors and LPE pump. That is 180whp more then what the stock system will support on E85(basically you cant even run e85 with boost on the stock fuel system) and roughly 60whp more then what the LT4 pump will support with E85 on a stock cam. The LT4 hpfp is 800.00, the LPE pump is 1500.00. so an extra 700.00 for 60whp more fuel headroom. A cam swap kit cost 1500.00 plus you still got to buy the pump. Now you are 2300.00 in parts(not including injectors or low side)...who is doing the work? That cam install gonna end up costing substantially more with labor unless you do it yourself. So cam and LT4 parts to make 700-720whp on E85, or stock cam and LPE big bore to make 660-680whp. For the cost difference, the stock cam/LPE BB setup seems like the more logical approach unless you do the forged Pistons while it's apart so you can turn it up further.

So for me it's only logical to do the cam if you are going to do the Pistons since power is up in the range where the factory piston longevity becomes hit or miss and the engine is already apart. And now you just added a couple thousand dollars more to the cost of the build. I would rather keep the stock motor in tact for now with a little less power, then build a motor when the time comes and do rods, pistons, cam, and stud the mains. Jmo

So to break it down:

Whipple- 6k
LPE big bore-1500.00
LT4 injectors- 500.00
ZL1 intank- 140.00
JMS booster- 400.00
Install-2000.00
Tune- 500.00
--------------------
Total-$11,040.00 for 660-680 whp on E85

or

cam kit- 1500.00
Labor- 2000.00
LT4 pump instead of LPE- -700.00
---------------------
Total- 14,200.00 for 700-720whp on E85

or

forged drop in pistons- 1200.00
labor(another 500.00? since the engine is mostly apart)
---------------------
Total- 16,900.00 for 760whp on E85(now at injector limits unless switching to race fuel?)


So now we are now at 5860.00 more then the basically stock motor/stock cam setup to make another 80-100whp reliably on E85. And then we come to the point, do we add the 3500.00 fuel injectors, or run high dollar race fuel to turn it up and break 800? Then when it's all said and done, how much of the power will ever make it to the pavement and not turn into tire smoke?

That's hilarious. Did you read what you wrote?

Let me recap.

1. You can do things cheaper.
2. In the long run you want to do all of the "expensive stuff".

You wrote, "I would rather keep the stock motor in tact for now with a little less power, then build a motor when the time comes and do rods, pistons, cam, and stud the mains. Jmo"

In other words, you want to do everything I suggested, but you want to do it in chunks...because you would rather spend the money over time instead of doing it all at one time. We are in agreement.

You do realize:
1. the cheapest labor option is to do it all at once.
2. Your math doesn't account for risk of running the stock engine under boost. When you run the engine with a less optimal setup (no pistons, no cam, no strengthened rods, springs, etc.) there is increased risk that your expense will be much higher than just doing it right to begin with.
3. You don't account for the cheapest path to 850whp...just adding alky to either 93octane or e85. Others have already done this...without running the big bore pump.


In other words, you want to do it your way because it's cheaper up front. Ok. Because I came to the same conclusion, I did everything at one time so that it would be cheaper over the long run.

[oldman]

Originally Posted by KingLT1

So cam and LT4 parts to make 700-720whp on E85, or stock cam and LPE big bore to make 660-680whp.

Would seem about right. I would add and this is IMO, cost insensitive since I do my own work. Ported heads and cam will make the 680 WHP as will the (stock cam and LPE big bore) but with less boost. To my mind the least amount of boost with the MOST octane headroom for any HP target is the more robust / dependable setup. It is hard to put a price on this. So while I agree on what you have posted and it has been well thought out and supported over the last 6 months or so on fuel system. I think for me and people like me will always error on the side of robust and dependable. That is why I went to the ported heads and cam route and the IMO more efficient blower with the most headroom (stage II intercooler, D1X). So yes my setup absolutely fails the price / performance equation. but it does follow the minimum boost, max available octane to achieve target HP formula perfectly and is STILL way cheaper than a ZL1. Heck I'm I have the biggest pulley they make for the D1X (slowest turning least boost).... don't need anymore till I get wider rims a 888R tires for the rear.. don't worry I go through a set of rear tires every 5000 miles.. it will be soon... LOL

[oldman]

Originally Posted by Drsagacity

That's hilarious. Did you read what you wrote?

In other words, you want to do it your way because it's cheaper up front. Ok. Because I came to the same conclusion, I did everything at one time so that it would be cheaper over the long run.

This is a hobby for me, so that is why I went FBO first and was actually going to do a 412 stroker. Now that I'm the blower area, I know it will be cheaper just build it to where I want to be. I do have the D1X and stage II intercooler. I'm just STILL on the fence on what to do about the fuel system. To me there are two options:
1) Goertz intake with 8 injectors and secondary brain, basically dual inject. Or 8 constant flow water / meth contant flow Snow type of system using meth / water
2) 3500 big DI and be done.

Advantage of 1), I can tune myself, either secondary brain or via jetting on constant flow system. Disadvantage; we are talking about a second fuel system under extreme HP, not the most dependable IMO.

Advantage of 2) single factory system and brain, direct inject and FI are a match made in heaven as the phase change happens in the chamber during compression. Disadvantage: I can't tune this myself and every pulley, cam or engine size change, I'm going to have to go back to the vendor and then for max optimization, a dyno tune...

Nothing has changed over the past year we are still at one or two. No I don't consider 2 nozzle Snow setups to be ideal, or useful, I don't own a PD setup, maybe for PD it works