[Elite Engineering]

In regard to engine running solvent based cleaners, we do NOT recommend on any GDI engine. While these are perfectly safe to use with a port injection engine, since no fuel touches the valves (and this is why in tank additives do nothing) they operate at far higher temps and the "soft carbon" of the past engines is no longer occurring, it is a "hard carbon" from being baked into a hard abrasive crystalline structure that is sand like in make up. So while most that is loosened during a treatment will be expelled out the exhaust (and eventually damage the catalytic converter) some of the smaller particles are forced between the pistons and cylinder walls causing scouring damage. While this damage is generally minor, it does increase blow-by and over time oil consumption and eventually power loss. Combine that with the manufacturers claims of "up to 40%" of the deposits are loosened (in actual use we have yet to see over 20% loosened), and the risks far outweigh any advantages. You can use these during a manual cleaning to help soften the deposits soaking the valves for 20-30 minutes prior to cleaning with the intake manifold removed.






And we ask anyone that doubts the severity and rate of coking to remove your own intake manifold and look and take pictures to share. ANY deposit has a negative effect. Look at how a valve is designed:






The valve has a ton of R&D into the shape, the thickness, the stem undercut, the satin swirl finish on the valve itself, the 3 angle seating surfaces ALL make a difference, so when any of this is compromised with deposits the efficiency degrades. And anyone that says "I don't feel any difference", you wont as the degradation is gradual. You need a before and after dyno session to document, and no, we did not do the dyno and cleaning on the example we shared at 20k miles. We simply instructed the owner how to perform the cleaning, and HE did it all himself and was present for all, so no games. We challenge anyone to try the same and see firsthand.


And just looking at any port injection engine as this example with 142,000 miles on there will be ZERO deposits as the fuel spray has kept them cool and clean:






But it is not just the degradation of power and efficiency, we now see wear early on valve guides. Something not seen for decades as valve and guide wear disappeared with the adoption of port fuel injection over carburetor engine prior that did have coking issues, but not as severe as today's GDI engines. Here is a picture showing how these deposits are drawn into the guide. The guide is a softer brass alloy and wears rapidly when subject to this hard abrasive build-up:








Now, comments were made here that we only show "extreme" examples. And if you look back you will see that is not true at all. Just as for years we were sharing this info and most were saying it did not exist at all, yet all automakers have gone to great lengths to combat this and some progress has been made, there is still NO solution outside of an external system. So we have shown all of this to be accurate.


Here are severe examples to show we show actual average results:










And the power loss? Look at this example of a BMW tech with his new 5 series. He did yearly dyno's on the same dyno to document over several years the power degradation, and then performed a manual cleaning for the final run. And no, he could not feel a real loss of power either, but sure did when it was restored:






Now some will say "that's not our engine", but in essence it is. Same compression ratio, same fuel used, same direct injection.


No one is "forcing" anyone to add any product to their vehicle, but with as severe as these issues are (and yes, most automakers have dropped engine warranties to nearly 1/2 or more from where they were 5 years ago for a reason. The average trouble free lifespan is not just an industry wide average of 50k miles vs over 100k a few years prior with port injection engines), the cost is minimal compared to other mods people commonly spend on.


Also, as most "catchcans" only trap a small fraction of what causes this, they have little impact over time compared to our 95% effective patented design.


One final subject, and that is methanol injection. Yes, this will have a positive impact albeit minor as it would require steady injection directly onto the valves VS most only spray when a certain level of boost is reached, and it is into the air intake bridge prior to the throttle body, this is not practical or cost effective. But it certainly does give some benefit.


Understanding why all of this occurs is key:


This shows a old port injection engine like the LS family:






And today's GDI engines:






As you can see, NO fuel touches the backsides of the valves where the coking occurs, and also shows why top tier fuels and in tank additives can do nothing to prevent this. ONLY the fuel injectors would benefit, and as they operate at such extreme pressures now they rarely clog.

[torqueaddict]

https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums...di-owners.html

Similar thread in the Corvette forums above. And good arguments on both sides of the fence on this. Also some pictures of the LT1. One showed very little coking at 12k miles.

Yes, it does happen, but how severe a problem it really is is a matter of debate. I'm going to trust the engineers at GM and leave it alone. Also, there are questions regarding catch cans and if they actually do anything for coking at all. Because they 'catch' something doesn't mean coking is absent.

[Emoto]

Originally Posted by torqueaddict

https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums...di-owners.html

Similar thread in the Corvette forums above. And good arguments on both sides of the fence on this. Also some pictures of the LT1. One showed very little coking at 12k miles.

Yes, it does happen, but how severe a problem it really is is a matter of debate. I'm going to trust the engineers at GM and leave it alone. Also, there are questions regarding catch cans and if they actually do anything for coking at all. Because they 'catch' something doesn't mean coking is absent.

LOL. That's why, in the title of this thread, I asked for owners with high mileage to tell us if they have had any actual problems. As some have pointed out, there may not be many with high miles yet, so we don't have a lot of data.

[torqueaddict]

Originally Posted by Emoto

LOL. That's why, in the title of this thread, I asked for owners with high mileage to tell us if they have had any actual problems. As some have pointed out, there may not be many with high miles yet, so we don't have a lot of data.

The corvette guys have had the LT1 longer and you'll get some pretty good info there.

Some in the Corvette forums have made a good point:If coking usually lead to severe enough engine issues, there'd be a lot of lawsuits and pissed off drivers. Go see how many running Mazdaspeeds there are with very high mileage for sale. Tons. Like I posted earlier, my own motor is still running strong at over 160k miles.

[Emoto]

Originally Posted by torqueaddict

The corvette guys have had the LT1 longer and you'll get some pretty good info there.

Some in the Corvette forums have made a good point:If coking usually lead to severe enough engine issues, there'd be a lot of lawsuits and pissed off drivers. Go see how many running Mazdaspeeds there are with very high mileage for sale. Tons. Like I posted earlier, my own motor is still running strong at over 160k miles.

[Corvette_Mike]

To Elite Eng. I looked at your website today. Which can do I need? I have a 2018 camaro 1SS. I want a kit that comes with all the plumbing hardware, so I can take the can off for dealer visits. Thank you.

[Whocares05050]

I am not sure why so many here are anti-catch can or even feel it wont effect them. My twin turbo n54 motor BMW at only 28k miles were so nasty that it picked up 38 RWHP after blasting the valves. Yes, they were COATED at only 28k miles... stock with zero mods. DI is great unless you neglect it. Spend 140 and get a damn catch can.

[Homer2]

Originally Posted by Emoto

LOL. That's why, in the title of this thread, I asked for owners with high mileage to tell us if they have had any actual problems. As some have pointed out, there may not be many with high miles yet, so we don't have a lot of data.

I am sure I define high mileage. 2017 with 100,000 miles. No catch can ( yet).
Was on the dyno today actually - was a little on the low side as a base number. Could be the lower octane that slips into my tank too often.. or ? ? ?

[Mighty Mouce]

Originally Posted by ht600

I wonder if anyone has tried using a endoscope down the intake manifold to look at the intake valves?

I have one and I'm thinking of trying to take a look at the valves.

Please post the video.

[Mighty Mouce]

If you use no oil between changes then you probably have little build up on the valves. I use know oil between changes with 18k miles.

[Deputy Dog]

Originally Posted by Mighty Mouce

If you use no oil between changes then you probably have little build up on the valves. I use know oil between changes with 18k miles.

Same here....no oil adding needed between OC.

[Whocares05050]

Originally Posted by Mighty Mouce

If you use no oil between changes then you probably have little build up on the valves. I use know oil between changes with 18k miles.

That's not how this works at all


You are only gonna collect about 3-4 oz's per oil change in the catch can. You wont notice that in a car that takes 10L of oil...


But that 3-4 oz's of oil vapor coating your valves over and over and over leads to a lot of issues at just as little as 30k miles.

[Nsxmatt]

Originally Posted by Whocares05050

I am not sure why so many here are anti-catch can or even feel it wont effect them. My twin turbo n54 motor BMW at only 28k miles were so nasty that it picked up 38 RWHP after blasting the valves. Yes, they were COATED at only 28k miles... stock with zero mods. DI is great unless you neglect it. Spend 140 and get a damn catch can.

That’s because the early Bmw DI engines are a horrible design and all have buildup and failures. They were early to introduce DI before they even knew how to make it work. You know your design is junk when BMW has an actual part number for walnut shells

[Whocares05050]

Originally Posted by Nsxmatt

That’s because the early Bmw DI engines are a horrible design and all have buildup and failures. They were early to introduce DI before they even knew how to make it work. You know your design is junk when BMW has an actual part number for walnut shells

I agree. Great motor though.