[protovack]

Lot of attitude in this thread, I like it.
Anyway, the person that told me heel-toe is a crutch was a pretty legit driver, who seemed to know what he was talking about. He also told me I should try driving the entire track in the same gear and try not to shift.

[Tulsa_SS]

You know what is legit? Taking your car to the track and driving it.

[protovack]

Originally Posted by Tulsa_SS

You know what is legit? Taking your car to the track and driving it.

Yea, that's what I do and it's awesome

[ninetres]

Not to add another layer of confusion, but some professional drivers brake with their heel, and blip with their toes. Saw it for the first time in a video a month or so ago. It was a NASCAR driver on a road course.....maybe Gordon???? I had to watch a few times. . Strange!

[TrackClub]

Originally Posted by protovack

Lot of attitude in this thread, I like it.
Anyway, the person that told me heel-toe is a crutch was a pretty legit driver, who seemed to know what he was talking about. He also told me I should try driving the entire track in the same gear and try not to shift.

Firstly, congrats for taking your car to the track: that is legit

Secondly, when learning to drive on a track many an instructor will advise their student to leave it in a 4th or 3rd gear (circuit dependent) to reduce workload and focus on what is most important when learning the craft: vision, being smooth with controls, following proper line, etc. At first it is an absolute info overload hence eliminating shifting make sense at this stage.

But, when one is beyond the basics and tries to increase pace it is crucial to be in a right gear for each upcoming corner exit.
Simply said, if one is in too tall a gear an exit speed will be compromised - zero question here. Also, such gear needs to be selected prior to turning into a corner. So if you come off a 4th gear straight into a slow hairpin, one would need to downshift to 2nd gear before corner entry. Etc.

The main issue not heel and toeing (or letting rev match do it for ya) is a possibility of locking up rear wheels (in addition to putting undue and sudden strain on a drive line when revs arent matched). When the rears lock up a car can spin instantly, or at best get unsettled. The former can lead to an easy wreck, the latter is highly undesirable as the key is to always keep a car as "flat" and as well balanced on all 4 contact patches (tires) as possible - at all times. Thats why "smooth is fast" (at least to a point and not at all meaning "slow and sleepy" but the idea is to maintain balanced platform as much as possible).

Now, some drivers, even seasoned amateurs, dont heel and toe. Not because this is better, but because they have never learnt how to do it. Some "cheat" by just blipping the throttle AFTER they brake but before they shift, etc. None of it is desirable or recommended over a proper heel and toe technique. None of it will allow the driver to maximize corner entry speed and smoothly transitioning to lower gear(s) necessary for an upcoming corner exit. Of course not all corners require downshifts. Some fast corners may only require a little braking input, or even just a slight lift of a throttle.

Bottom line, i dont understand why anyone would suggest that matching revs before a downshift would be a "crutch". The latter would suggest that some other technique is better, or achieve better results. And that is simply NOT the case. Even automatic dual clutches will blip to match revs. I would say that an automated rev match function is a crutch, as the car performs the heel and toe automatically and flawlessy. But thats a good thing and majority of even seasoned track rats will gladly use it as it reduces their workload. I had to heel and toe in my previous 2 cars. Had modified pedals to make it easier, etc. Was pretty proficient at it, yet
I am happy to use rev match because it reduces my work load and since i am an old dog, the fewer the tricks i need to perform the better

Lastly: anyone suggesting that a heel and toe is not necessary for maximizing pace around the track is not legit and/or not as fast as they could be, or drives an auto of some sort, or a stock car (in which you brake with your left foot and use your right to just blip a throttle when downshifting - no clutch necessary).

NB when one first starts with a track hobby many folks on a paddock will look (and sound) like accomplished pros, but sometimes spew absolute bs. Choose your mentors wisely: learn at driving schools like PCA, or BMW who train their instructors to become accredited and competent coaches. Run away from folks who are not humble and friendly and who talk about themselves and their track/racing "war" stories, more than about you and your learning needs

Cheers!

[Crim]

Originally Posted by TrackClub

Firstly, congrats for taking your car to the track: that is legit

Secondly, when learning to drive on a track many an instructor will advise their student to leave it in a 4th or 3rd gear (circuit dependent) to reduce workload and focus on what is most important when learning the craft: vision, being smooth with controls, following proper line, etc. At first it is an absolute info overload hence eliminating shifting make sense at this stage.

But, when one is beyond the basics and tries to increase pace it is crucial to be in a right gear for each upcoming corner exit.
Simply said, if one is in too tall a gear an exit speed will be compromised - zero question here. Also, such gear needs to be selected prior to turning into a corner. So if you come off a 4th gear straight into a slow hairpin, one would need to downshift to 2nd gear before corner entry. Etc.

The main issue not heel and toeing (or letting rev match do it for ya) is a possibility of locking up rear wheels (in addition to putting undue and sudden strain on a drive line when revs arent matched). When the rears lock up a car can spin instantly, or at best get unsettled. The former can lead to an easy wreck, the latter is highly undesirable as the key is to always keep a car as "flat" and as well balanced on all 4 contact patches (tires) as possible - at all times. Thats why "smooth is fast" (at least to a point and not at all meaning "slow and sleepy" but the idea is to maintain balanced platform as much as possible).

Now, some drivers, even seasoned amateurs, dont heel and toe. Not because this is better, but because they have never learnt how to do it. Some "cheat" by just blipping the throttle AFTER they brake but before they shift, etc. None of it is desirable or recommended over a proper heel and toe technique. None of it will allow the driver to maximize corner entry speed and smoothly transitioning to lower gear(s) necessary for an upcoming corner exit. Of course not all corners require downshifts. Some fast corners may only require a little braking input, or even just a slight lift of a throttle.

Bottom line, i dont understand why anyone would suggest that matching revs before a downshift would be a "crutch". The latter would suggest that some other technique is better, or achieve better results. And that is simply NOT the case. Even automatic dual clutches will blip to match revs. I would say that an automated rev match function is a crutch, as the car performs the heel and toe automatically and flawlessy. But thats a good thing and majority of even seasoned track rats will gladly use it as it reduces their workload. I had to heel and toe in my previous 2 cars. Had modified pedals to make it easier, etc. Was pretty proficient at it, yet
I am happy to use rev match because it reduces my work load and since i am an old dog, the fewer the tricks i need to perform the better

Lastly: anyone suggesting that a heel and toe is not necessary for maximizing pace around the track is not legit and/or not as fast as they could be, or drives an auto of some sort, or a stock car (in which you brake with your left foot and use your right to just blip a throttle when downshifting - no clutch necessary).

NB when one first starts with a track hobby many folks on a paddock will look (and sound) like accomplished pros, but sometimes spew absolute bs. Choose your mentors wisely: learn at driving schools like PCA, or BMW who train their instructors to become accredited and competent coaches. Run away from folks who are not humble and friendly and who talk about themselves and their track/racing "war" stories, more than about you and your learning needs

Cheers!

Post of the weekend right there.

[50MileSmile]

Originally Posted by Crim

Post of the weekend right there.

Absolutely.

My route to the track has been different than a lot of the people here - up through the SCCA ranks - first autocrossing and then earning a track license, professional race driving school and lots of laps in door-to-door competition. Never won a race (never seemed to have quite enough cubic money), but did set a lap record that still stands today. (The track closed a few years later.)

IMHO, a proper heel-and-toe technique is essential to going fast, because it enhances smoothness. Smooth equals speed. As I get to know the 1LE better, I’d say the rev match feature is an excellent tool to use as you get to know the car and improve your driving style, but I’m also sure that heel and toe will be a better choice when (if) you finally approach and go beyond 8 or 9/10ths on the track, which many drivers never see. The rev match feature is pretty good, but it’s programmed for “averages,” and there will be many situations where it’s not the smoothest, fastest or best choice - and I don’t like giving up the control of the rear tires to the computer. Practice your technique, and the speed will come.

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by protovack

1.) Revmatch is a crutch.

Yes and no. It would be a crutch for those drivers who don't understand why revs should be matched (by any means) when shifting, which includes anybody who comes to rely on it for upshift smoothness.

Once you do understand the concept of matching revs and why you need to be doing it, ARM is mostly just a different way of getting it done. How well any individual can adapt to using ARM is a separate matter (my understanding is that doing even a little throttle kick yourself in these cars will cancel the ARM for that shift).

2.) Revmatch is modern technology, use it and enjoy the car. It's one less thing to worry about when turning. Just sit back, use the technology and think nothing of it.

Just remember that there's no guarantee you'll be able to take your ARM-based "muscle memory" with you to all other cars you might drive either now or later.

This also comes back to understanding that rev matching is a necessary mechanical concept that's been with us all along, not something new that high-tech assistance is now available for.

3.)A TRUE driver selects his gear . . .

Best thing you can do with #3 is forget you ever heard or read any of it.


Norm

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by MosaicX1LE

I mean I agree that the rev match technology is cool, so it's not a crutch per se, but at some point shouldn't you just have an automatic transmission? I heard the track mode on the auto was pretty dang good.

Also... maybe a few people trolling here, heel-toe does not actually involve your heal. I think the term itself comes from tanks or pre-WWII or something where you actually put your heel on one pedal and hot the other one with your toes. ... someone once told me you had to do this with the 2006 GTO, but anyways. This is part of the enjoyment of a manual transmission to me. I'm sure you can be as fast, or faster with the computer doing everything for you though.

You can roll your foot (which is what I assume you do) or turn your foot using the heel on the gas pedal, ball/toes on the brake.

Which I do depends on the cars pedal (placement/shape). It's much easier to roll ones foot vs turning though, with some pedals though it's just not possible to do so, at least in nomex shoes. For HPDEs I just use skate shoes or similar and never have an issue rolling my foot vs having to turn the foot inward.

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by ninetres

Not to add another layer of confusion, but some professional drivers brake with their heel, and blip with their toes. Saw it for the first time in a video a month or so ago. It was a NASCAR driver on a road course.....maybe Gordon???? I had to watch a few times. . Strange!

Now that would take one unique pedal set!

[Dave-ROR]

Originally Posted by TrackClub

Some "cheat" by just blipping the throttle AFTER they brake but before they shift, etc. None of it is desirable or recommended over a proper heel and toe technique. None of it will allow the driver to maximize corner entry speed and smoothly transitioning to lower gear(s) necessary for an upcoming corner exit.

To clarify something on this point.. If you are downshifting through multiple gears and heel-toe shifting for each one, you are likely slightly reducing your brake pressure. The easiest way to be faster, or slower, during a lap is through your braking. If you know your corner speeds, you will do more or less the same speed if you brake early or on time, you'll just roll off the pressure if you brake early. Everywhere else that's full throttle is just full throttle, a monkey could do it more or less.

So if you are doing a 5-3, 4-2, etc shift, there really is no reason to blip the throttle until you are ready to get on the gas. No reason to shift either until the very end of their braking zone.

So I really just wanted to point out that HT shifting through multiple gears is useless I guess. (edit: useless for those in between gears)