[1970judge]

Originally Posted by KingLT1

You are posting out of frustration and I don't blame you for being upset
but Vengeance did nothing wrong. Your shop isn't worth a shit...plain and simple. Any reputable shop that is not familiar with a specific combination of parts should take the necessary precautions to make sure everything works. That includes, checking, PTV, degreeing the cam, and verifying install height on the Valve springs along with correct push rod length. Not all engines are exactly the same. Your shop simply doesn't want to pay for their mistake and they are trying to make the parts supplier look bad.

100%. I worked in aftermarket performance before my engineering degree/OEM job. This is 90% always the case. Of course there is the 10% where, say, a bad part that fails. But 90% of the time it is install shops fault, AND 100% of the time its the install shops fault to hit their marks in the pre-check department before pushing the car out. Back in that time the "magic cam" was the TSP MS3 or MS4..we installed 100's of them, we double checked each and every 100 of them. Better safe than sorry. As Ron said, had they done their homework, there would have been a phone call happen with "we are seeing xx PTV and its making us nervous" or "the springs in your cam kit are a little close to coil bind for our liking" etc. If that phone call didnt take place, install shop is at fault.

This strikes a chord with me because that former employer I worked with was ruined (few years after I left) by a forum post from a disgruntled customer that blamed the wrong person. The aftermarket arena is tough and there are lots of bad apples but there are lots of good people that get ruined by the bad apple. Your install shop is the bad apple.

[DatBrotato]

Originally Posted by 1970judge

100%. I worked in aftermarket performance before my engineering degree/OEM job. This is 90% always the case. Of course there is the 10% where, say, a bad part that fails. But 90% of the time it is install shops fault, AND 100% of the time its the install shops fault to hit their marks in the pre-check department before pushing the car out. Back in that time the "magic cam" was the TSP MS3 or MS4..we installed 100's of them, we double checked each and every 100 of them. Better safe than sorry. As Ron said, had they done their homework, there would have been a phone call happen with "we are seeing xx PTV and its making us nervous" or "the springs in your cam kit are a little close to coil bind for our liking" etc. If that phone call didnt take place, install shop is at fault.

This strikes a chord with me because that former employer I worked with was ruined (few years after I left) by a forum post from a disgruntled customer that blamed the wrong person. The aftermarket arena is tough and there are lots of bad apples but there are lots of good people that get ruined by the bad apple. Your install shop is the bad apple.

There is an inherent flaw with this mindset/reasoning. You're basically saying the shop will always be to blame for out of tolerance components, and that the manufacturer will only be responsible in the case of a catastrophic parts failure, and even then it might not be provable because of all the variables involved. So most of the time they get off the hook.

I too am a degreed engineer and deal with this sort of thing daily. I KNOW exactly how much bs can come from a resource provider. At the end of the day the one at the end of the chain is usually the one to take all the blow back.

[Bumblbee16]

How well mannered is the stage 3? Probably needs a stall converter right?

[DatBrotato]

Originally Posted by Bumblbee16

How well mannered is the stage 3? Probably needs a stall converter right?

yeh you will.
It was fine around town, granted I only had it for <1day and this isn't my DD.

Just make sure you've got extra room in your pockets in case your motor is tighter than most and/or vengeance supplies out of spec parts and your shop forgets to check. Because you could be left high and dry like me.

[Goldfish]

It seems pretty easy to figure out where the issue is. Measure the cam. If it's in spec, it's the install shop for sure. If not, then harass Vengeance.

[oldman]

Just my .02. With my stage 1 blower cam, I did not degree it in or check install height with the already designed spring seat / seal that was spec for the cam. But it was getting close, Pray took .006 off the heads, but I felt there was a good bit of head room. I did check many times the fuel lobe and that WAS way out of spec and it would have pounded the pump off the studs...

This cam is friggen HUGE, it would be my opinion only a full lockout and a fully blueprinted install would suffice, clay it, check the install height of each spring, verify coil bind. spin the engine and see if it is reasonable of a non-roller tip rocker over the contact area of the valve stem. Heck many of you would remember that I was all for the GM perf cam with sub .600 lift just because I trust GM AND I don't like .600 plus lift cams on DD. That is me, Pray talked me into this baby blower cam and I'm 100 percent happy, especially because of the fuel lobe.... idle is bad action too just saying... but this stage III cam... my god, there is a lot of lift and duration especially on exhaust. Only a fully locked and blueprinted setup, meaning TIME would be acceptable.

[MP3BOOSTED]

[DatBrotato]

Originally Posted by Goldfish

It seems pretty easy to figure out where the issue is. Measure the cam. If it's in spec, it's the install shop for sure. If not, then harass Vengeance.

Of course. This doesn't end here. They'll measure everything out once the short block & heads comes back from the machine shop.
I refuse to be the only one who gets bent over in this situation when I did nothing wrong.

Originally Posted by oldman

Just my .02. With my stage 1 blower cam, I did not degree it in or check install height with the already designed spring seat / seal that was spec for the cam. But it was getting close, Pray took .006 off the heads, but I felt there was a good bit of head room. I did check many times the fuel lobe and that WAS way out of spec and it would have pounded the pump off the studs...

This cam is friggen HUGE, it would be my opinion only a full lockout and a fully blueprinted install would suffice, clay it, check the install height of each spring, verify coil bind. spin the engine and see if it is reasonable of a non-roller tip rocker over the contact area of the valve stem. Heck many of you would remember that I was all for the GM perf cam with sub .600 lift just because I trust GM AND I don't like .600 plus lift cams on DD. That is me, Pray talked me into this baby blower cam and I'm 100 percent happy, especially because of the fuel lobe.... idle is bad action too just saying... but this stage III cam... my god, there is a lot of lift and duration especially on exhaust. Only a fully locked and blueprinted setup, meaning TIME would be acceptable.

My shop basically said the same thing, in fewer words.
I trust GM manufacturing far more than any 3rd party. It's a shame they don't offer more aggressive performance products.

[Gunkk]

Originally Posted by DatBrotato

I refuse to be the only one who gets bent over in this situation when I did nothing wrong.

Let's see here.... facts:
He paid his money.
He took his chances.
He missed a shift.
He blew up his car.

So therefore, everyone else is at fault but him? Sheesh.



Ok Mr. Datrotato, you already got free labor from the shop that screwed up the job, but now you want free replacement parts from Vengeance too, but you haven't shown any data yet to back up your claim.

You come one here bashing them, attempting to inflate your ethos claiming that you are a "degreed engineer." Yet you make a claim without showing any data?

Shame on you.


Are you gonna show some data? Or are you just a crybaby.

[Goldfish]

Originally Posted by DatBrotato

I refuse to be the only one who gets bent over in this situation when I did nothing wrong.

I trust GM manufacturing far more than any 3rd party. It's a shame they don't offer more aggressive performance products.

Just to be clear, modifying a car is a risk. If you're unwilling to accept the risk, then you should leave the car alone. If the cam is defective, then Vengeance should step up, but that's probably an issue better resolved NOT in the court of public opinion. Otherwise, the onus falls squarely on you and your install shop. There is a reason that most performance shops don't warranty their performance work.

[DatBrotato]

Originally Posted by Gunkk

Let's see here.... facts:
He paid his money.
He took his chances.
He missed a shift.
He blew up his car.

So therefore, everyone else is at fault but him? Sheesh.



Ok Mr. Datrotato, you already got free labor from the shop that screwed up the job, but now you want free replacement parts from Vengeance too, but you haven't shown any data yet to back up your claim.

You come one here bashing them, attempting to inflate your ethos claiming that you are a "degreed engineer." Yet you make a claim without showing any data?

Shame on you.


Are you gonna show some data? Or are you just a crybaby.

*lol No papers were signed.
*I am not liable to take on all the risk.
*No free revv miss shift should be responsible for a blown up car with 24hrs of its completion.
*I am no longer getting anything and it's all coming out of pocket.
*The statement about my profession was in response to someone else posting their's.

The data will be provided as soon as I get it from the shop.
They deserve every bit of the bashing if it turns out the way I think it will, and in that scenario if they don't make it right I will pursue legal action.

[Rlhay2]

Originally Posted by DatBrotato

*No free revv miss shift should be responsible for a blown up car with 24hrs of its completion.

The amount of time that has passed before being over-revved is irrelevant.

Whether it was valve float, too much lift or improperly timed during assembly, the triggering event was the missed shift over rev!

It sucks. But your refusal to accept the shortcomings of your shifting ability is embarrassing.

I guess you could blame the shifter or transmission too...

[oldman]

Originally Posted by Goldfish

. There is a reason that most performance shops don't warranty their performance work.

My younger bro races Boxsters, a full built engine installed runs 20 to 30K, they come with no warranty given or implied, if it blows up just diving out of the driveway... nope.

The factory warranties the Z/28 and we all know how expensive and overbuilt that car is and that cam would be considered stage 0 by us! Even with the Z/28 there have been issue primary with guide wear..

[oldman]

Originally Posted by DatBrotato

*lol No papers were signed.
.
*No free revv miss shift should be responsible for a blown up car with 24hrs of its completion.

Agree on the free revv, I don't think it is possible to 100% be certainty that the engine did not blow on a 3rd to 2nd miss shift. aka mechanical over rev. Clearly the dealer can pull the max RPM code from the ecu when a check engine light is set (based on all the bent push rod LS2 suits / claims). IMO you would need that for any suit.


Your suit would be based on this:"Shop claims they didn't do a PTV clearance check because it's a common LT1 H/C package "

Vengeance has already said this package needs to be fully blue printed. case closed, installer error.

IMO because this dealer sells and installs Vengeance products, Vengeance does have a vested interest in this. The should at least verify with their own dealer, what was said and done. IMO of course. This is NOT a GM perf cam, it is a HUGE max effort street cam, clearly to my mind there has to some caution with this. I can give an example the BTR baby street / blower cam says "gentle on the valvetrain". I take that as probably don't need chain, push rods or trunnion upgrades, probably don't need to change the mild performance valve springs every 20k, probably don't need the killer valve springs, don't need better than LT7 lifters, will work with standard cam restrictor... That's what I take from it. The stage III should say something like only a fully blueprinted cam install with proper components aka nothing stock.