[oldman]

Originally Posted by FastCarFanBoy

Thank you for backing up everything I said. You are a manual purist and that is fine, but wont change the fact that the current gen of autos are as good or better than manuals at everything from a strictly performance standpoint and they will continue to get better in the future through more advanced software and technology advances while also offering an increasingly more engaging manual experience. Manuals are at a dead end.

Agree to disagree, you are focused on a prep track with DR / slicks, there are many races like road, autoX, fixed mile and silver state that the manual is simpler and has less heat issues. On the street with normal street radials, yep a like auto has the advantage, but a reasonably competent M6 will beat an auto pretender anytime. GM rates the M6 at .2 slower both 0 to 60 and in the 1/4... close enough to a drivers race, and for me that means 99% of the dudes are not going to beat me with their auto whatever it is. And if I get beat, that is racing, either he got a faster car, was a better driver or got lucky,

[oldman]

Originally Posted by torqueaddict

My point was, that someone who's a purist doesn't care if an auto (dual-clutch or not) is faster or shifts quicker. You're looking at it from purely a performance perspective, but that's only a small part of it.

You are willing to go with one or the other based on that performance aspect first and foremost. So I would not consider you a manual purist.

I'm not disagreeing with you at all about the autos. They are quicker most of the times, but their performance cannot make up for their lack of engagement compared to a manual.

I am familiar with the dual clutch trannies and how responsive they are. A friend of mine owns a modified Audi S4. The thing is a bullet and yes, the shifts are instantaneous up and down. Still, I'd rather have a manual clutch.

I think the Porsche GT3 is the best example of this. The PDK tranny is quicker, but the purists wanted the manual, so Porsche built it.

Amen

My bro is big in Boxsters, for his click of amateur racers, the manual is still faster in most application. Maybe that has changed in the over the last few years his is 2006? S, it is way modified now, but when it was new the whole m6 vs PDK was a HOT issue. It could be just the diehards showing up with their M6 just to show the upstarts that on the autoX road race it really is the driver not the trans. Dunno. I love the M6 Boxster, no way I'd get one without the manual, same goes with a Miata.

Now my next Muscle car, like my previous Camaro and my Challenger they are auto cause I knew I'd be 1/4 mile racing with them.

For my 6th gen, this is a DD, and .2 seconds is not going to be the "win" for me, it is me with whatever tire I got installed, with whatever is under hood against "them"... and the last "them" was an auto Hellcat that completely botched his launch..

[oldman]

Originally Posted by newmoon

This! The obsession with lap times and quarter mile times fuels the push towards automatic versions. While autos shine in regards to the stopwatch they lack in the driver engagement and pure fun of actually driving the car.

Nothing wrong with either automatics or manuals, whichever car best fits your needs. For myself there is no right or wrong answer in the manual vs auto debate, it depends on the car.

I can't believe that you and I agree 100 percent again

[SecondZ28]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

I'm not sure which trim level GT you sat in or which trim level SS you're comparing it to. But I've been in a base GT, a Premium GT, a GT with PP, a base SS, a 2SS, and my ZL1. There is nothing "nicer" on either car when comparing trim levels. Base to base they were similar. 2 SS to Premium and again, they were similar. I saw nothing noticeably better in one over the other. I did feel that the Premium GT seemed to be not as durable.

Not sure which level GT, it didn't have a lot of options on the sticker. But still managed a $42-43k price.

[oldman]

Originally Posted by SecondZ28

Not sure which level GT, it didn't have a lot of options on the sticker. But still managed a $42-43k price.

I dream of a GN, probably the ultimate car for its time.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by SecondZ28

Not sure which level GT, it didn't have a lot of options on the sticker. But still managed a $42-43k price.

That sounds like a Premium with PP. I'm not sure which option group it would be tho. I had a Premium non-PP with 401a option group and the interior was on par with the 2SS...but...the equal tier Camaro DOES have more options and features or so it seemed. I think when it comes to which one is better it becomes more a matter of preference.

[BlaqWhole]

As far as the debate over auto and manual, I like both just about equally. Manual is more fun sometimes but not all the time. When you're driving an auto and all you gotta do is punch it then that is fun...having to shift the gears manually just to feel some juice is kinda annoying. Coming out of a turn and banging the gears is fun. But so is coming out of a turn and not having to worry about it and letting the ECU shift. So to me they're pretty much the same. I think it is good to have one of each.

[KingLT1]

I have had both and like both, but the new autos are more fun then ever. You can let it shift on its own, or shift it manually...some days I like to use manual mode and shift through curvy roads or just to keep the RPM's up higher and hear the engine more. Plus the sound of the engine staying up in the power on these A8 and A10 transmissions is pretty sweet.

[VJChevelle67]

Originally Posted by SecondZ28

Guess I shoud clarify?

I found the Mustang is nicer than a 2SS Gen 6

Exterior still looks like crap and reliability seems to be bad. But it's got a one up on the interior

I love the look of the 6 gen reason for buying one never bought a classic or a sweet ride unless I loved it. Drive safe

[BlaqWhole]

So according to Ford, the 2020 GT500 is going to put the ZL1 and Demon to shame...meanwhile they still haven't announced how much HP it will have or what the MSRP will be. I swear they are just some very stupid people. Even if they do manage to beat the ZL1 and the Demon, the congrats, it took you 3 MYs to beat the unchanged ZL1 and 2 MYs to beat an unchanged 1-year production only Demon. And for the record Ford, the GT500 had better come with coolers up it's ass, every option imaginable as STANDARD, a MSRP of $65K-$70K, it better beat the ZL1 in a straight line and the ZL1 1LE around a track, and even then if it manages to do all that and NOT have markups, then it still wouldn't be putting anything to shame given that Ford had 3 MYs to build something and had to push the release date back twice, lol!!

[FastCarFanBoy]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

So according to Ford, the 2020 GT500 is going to put the ZL1 and Demon to shame...meanwhile they still haven't announced how much HP it will have or what the MSRP will be. I swear they are just some very stupid people. Even if they do manage to beat the ZL1 and the Demon, the congrats, it took you 3 MYs to beat the unchanged ZL1 and 2 MYs to beat an unchanged 1-year production only Demon. And for the record Ford, the GT500 had better come with coolers up it's ass, every option imaginable as STANDARD, a MSRP of $65K-$70K, it better beat the ZL1 in a straight line and the ZL1 1LE around a track, and even then if it manages to do all that and NOT have markups, then it still wouldn't be putting anything to shame given that Ford had 3 MYs to build something and had to push the release date back twice, lol!!

Really? Faster than a demon in the 1/4 and faster than a ZL1LE around a road course for $70k? And no ADM? **** kttxz06’s dealer... let me get your guys number.

[newmoon]

Originally Posted by FastCarFanBoy

Really? Faster than a demon in the 1/4 and faster than a ZL1LE around a road course for $70k? And no ADM? **** kttxz06’s dealer... let me get your guys number.

Maybe on the faster than the ZL11LE. Never in regards to the Demon.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

So according to Ford, the 2020 GT500 is going to put the ZL1 and Demon to shame...meanwhile they still haven't announced how much HP it will have or what the MSRP will be. I swear they are just some very stupid people. Even if they do manage to beat the ZL1 and the Demon, the congrats, it took you 3 MYs to beat the unchanged ZL1 and 2 MYs to beat an unchanged 1-year production only Demon. And for the record Ford, the GT500 had better come with coolers up it's ass, every option imaginable as STANDARD, a MSRP of $65K-$70K, it better beat the ZL1 in a straight line and the ZL1 1LE around a track, and even then if it manages to do all that and NOT have markups, then it still wouldn't be putting anything to shame given that Ford had 3 MYs to build something and had to push the release date back twice, lol!!

Did I miss something? I don't recall seeing Ford call those cars out other than "venom kills demons" If they did that's some big talk from Ford which IIRC they normally don't do. And I agree with Blaq, IF ford did say that they better back that up, and the MSRP of the car IMO can be no more than 75.

I still don't think they will be able to catch the ZLE on the track, not unless they go the regular model/ R route again.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by newmoon

Maybe on the faster than the ZL11LE. Never in regards to the Demon.

I think the Demon would be easier to catch than the ZL1 1LE. Straight line speed in a light car would be less difficult than the chassis tuning engineering required to match the 1LE.