[Fraxum]

This thread is too funny. Carry on.

But come on Ford guys the Gen 4 Camaro/Firebirds owned the parallel Mustangs. The '96-'97 Black TA WS6 was the best looking of all of them by a mile. No fair going into the future!

But before that starting in '84-'92 the Mustang owned the Camaros. Then in 2010 the pendulum went back to the Camaros until the first Coyotes, until the 2016 Camaros. IN 2018 we finally have parity. We really have to pic nits to set them apart. But if you want a sun roof or FI the Camaro is still king.

[whiteboyblues2001]

Originally Posted by oldman

I looked at the 2018 Mustang, to me it is nicer than the 2017, but really it just is not correct... I guess I'm so use to see fake stuff like face hood scoops on the Mustang that unless it is absolutely functional, it just screams highschool to me. So I guess I've given up on hoping that Ford will actually have functional scoops and extractors..

I honestly don't know, is it function on a V8? dunno, are they functional on the ecoboost.. don't know, is the scoop function on the 2018 V8? don't know. I'm just saying 30 years of non-functional stuff slapped on the hood or rear 1/4 panels has really turned me off on the Ford design.

I'm sure a Ford guy will chime in now and say for 2018 the XYZ stuff actually works... OK then. I've had a few Camaros apart now and everything on the car or stuck to the hoods that look "performance" actually has a performance use.

For instance, the second trans cooler on the Camaro is horizontal, it looks like it will take air off the grill and then duct it under the car, this will have even more function given a splitter (less air under the car, more negative pressure). I highly doubt and I don't work on Mustangs that new front of the Mustang uses any air draft from grill to any type or horizontal cooler. My point is just everything on the Camaro is functional and for decades now everything or almost everything on a Mustang "looks fast".

If you look on the underside of the trans cooler on the Camaro, there is a little lip in front of it (perpendicular to the bottom of the car). This helps separate the air going under the car from the car itself, creating a vacuum which pulls air out through the trans cooler. It's a pretty cool design (no pun intended).

And, BTW, fake scoops are now called RICE.

RICE = Race Inspired Cosmetic Enhancements.

More and more new vehicles are getting very RICEy. Tons of fake grills on the front, fake scoops, etc. Never liked it, never will, but I understand an economy car having some RICE to make it look cooler (still don't like it), but why put RICE on a sports car (or muscle car, or pony car). Make it functional, or don't put it on there. Makes no sense.

And no, I did NOT like the mailslot on the 5th Gen SS. RICE!

[Mountain]

Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001

If you look on the underside of the trans cooler on the Camaro, there is a little lip in front of it (perpendicular to the bottom of the car). This helps separate the air going under the car from the car itself, creating a vacuum which pulls air out through the trans cooler. It's a pretty cool design (no pun intended).

And, BTW, fake scoops are now called RICE.

RICE = Race Inspired Cosmetic Enhancements.

More and more new vehicles are getting very RICEy. Tons of fake grills on the front, fake scoops, etc. Never liked it, never will, but I understand an economy car having some RICE to make it look cooler (still don't like it), but why put RICE on a sports car (or muscle car, or pony car). Make it functional, or don't put it on there. Makes no sense.

And no, I did NOT like the mailslot on the 5th Gen SS. RICE!

Added to my vocabulary.

In relation to that note:
https://cardesignnews.com/articles/d...design-matters

"Might being surrounded by dishonest design make us bitter and cynical in the same way as being let down by our leaders? It’s certainly worth pondering."

"False grilles, non-functional diffusers and hollow power bulges may seem like small fry in the grand scheme of life, but not only do little lies lead to big ones if left unchecked, such things are symbolic of an unhealthy contempt for the consumer which the car industry can no longer afford. And that’s something every designer should bear in mind."

Just throwing this in here for fun/thought.

[oldman]

Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001

And, BTW, fake scoops are now called RICE.

RICE = Race Inspired Cosmetic Enhancements.

Learned something new... I do have a full built sleeved 10,000 RPM 2.1 liter Integra Type R... mild by today's terms bout 2400 lbs with A/C and 275 HP...

[oldman]

Where did that come from?? Triggered much? Did one molest you back then? No need to get the blood pressure up, dont be so sensitive LOL

My blood pressure is low, might outlive you...

Its OK, it's not that deep. I used to own a 1997 and a 2002 Z28, single exhaust and all, before upgrading to an 03 Cobra.

Actually, you are the one to bring up the single exhaust as some sort of poser for the Camaro, it was I that pointed out that the single exhaust absolutely destroyed the GT and was a driver's race with a Cobra despite the 4x the number of cams, hand built engine, 2x the number of exhaust pipes, a recall to fix poor performance, 2x the number of valves... But I'll give you that especially the GT... came with dual exahust and was about as fast as my 1.8 liter NA Integra Type R with a single exhaust and a motor less than 1/2 the size. But hey the GT did have that fake scoop stuck to sides of the car woooP!

http://www.superstreetonline.com/fea...e-r-ownership/
vs https://www.allfordmustangs.com/phot...p/photo/114687

does the Cobra hood scoops work.. doubtful, please chime in..

[Zeke.Malvo]

Originally Posted by oldman

My blood pressure is low, might outlive you...



Actually, you are the one to bring up the single exhaust as some sort of poser for the Camaro, it was I that pointed out that the single exhaust absolutely destroyed the GT and was a driver's race with a Cobra despite the 4x the number of cams, hand built engine, 2x the number of exhaust pipes, a recall to fix poor performance, 2x the number of valves... But I'll give you that especially the GT... came with dual exahust and was about as fast as my 1.8 liter NA Integra Type R with a single exhaust and a motor less than 1/2 the size. But hey the GT did have that fake scoop stuck to sides of the car woooP!

http://www.superstreetonline.com/fea...e-r-ownership/
vs https://www.allfordmustangs.com/phot...p/photo/114687

does the Cobra hood scoops work.. doubtful, please chime in..

I really like the Integra Type R's, they were really good cars. They just don't make cars like that anymore. Honda made a mistake letting the Integra/RSX just die. A good friend of mine had one with nitrous, very fast car at the tine.

[whiteboyblues2001]

Originally Posted by oldman

Learned something new... I do have a full built sleeved 10,000 RPM 2.1 liter Integra Type R... mild by today's terms bout 2400 lbs with A/C and 275 HP...

I initially thought the term "RICE" was just the word rice, and it was a derogatory term for Asian imports. But, it's not for imports, it's just for phony gimmicks stuck on the car that do nothing.

The Integra was awesome. What's funny is that Honda now makes the Civic type R (again), and it is now offered in the US. It has amazing performance for a front wheel drive car. But it has a TON of RICE. There are fake grilles all over that thing! The styling is a bit too much for me, but I may be too old for the crowd they are probably marketing. The Civic in general is not a bad looking car, but too much RICE on the Type R Civic. Otherwise, it seems like a worthy successor to the Integra.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001

I initially thought the term "RICE" was just the word rice, and it was a derogatory term for Asian imports. But, it's not for imports, it's just for phony gimmicks stuck on the car that do nothing.

The Integra was awesome. What's funny is that Honda now makes the Civic type R (again), and it is now offered in the US. It has amazing performance for a front wheel drive car. But it has a TON of RICE. There are fake grilles all over that thing! The styling is a bit too much for me, but I may be too old for the crowd they are probably marketing. The Civic in general is not a bad looking car, but too much RICE on the Type R Civic. Otherwise, it seems like a worthy successor to the Integra.

Well initially it WAS a derogatory term towards Asian cars. Working in car shops in the 90s taught me that. I personally refused to use that term for a long time. Over the years it took on a different meaning. Now it can even describe an attitude. So I use it now. Hell I've even called Mustang guys the "ricers" of the Muscle Car" world, lol!! But knowing how it all started out being used I can honestly say I don't think I'm fully comfortable using it. So I'll probably stop using it altogether.

[FastCarFanBoy]

Originally Posted by oldman

I would speculate it is more along the lines of the engine is "hard to work on" and it does not respond as well to mods like cams and porting vs the LS LT; couple to that is the fact that 4 cams are hugely expensive, along with 32 valve springs. So Ford guys always have to fall back to the one trick pony "stock engine". Big deal.


Please, I work on cars a long time, few people every own up to I blew my stock engine and now I have a forged engine in the car.... So we have the insistence it is stock... when it comes to racing and claims, I'm of the opinion that if can't be proved, the claim is doubtful.


For me, even mild low boost setup, I'm completely prepared for the inevitable boom, and I'm just hoping that I get the forged pistons in before that.... My car ain't stock, nor do I like stock cars...

If you are racing your 9 second DD, then there is something up with needing to save a few sheckles on a "stock" engine..... just my opinion.

The coyote is more difficult to work on than an LT1 im sure but it ain't that much harder. A few more steps and you gotta pay attention with the chains and tensioners but if you can swap a cam on an LS1 or LT1 you can handle a cams swap on a Coyote. You will not see the gains you see on an pushrod motor and that combined with the cost makes FI the smart decision because the sky is the limit on the stock cams and heads...just select a HP level and build a rotating assembly for that or see how far you can push the stock parts.

My long block is stock, It's no "big deal" anyway right? As to why, Its never been a finacial expense/project that made sense to me. I don't lose sleep at night that my motor is going to shit the bed. A 2015+ shortblock is $2500 bucks and will handle all the power I need. If I pop mine i will buy one and may port the heads myself just to say I did. i dont have a spare car so the downtime would also cause me further expense and at 48 I may not be an "oldman" but I dont enjoy being bent over the fenders in a 110 degree south florida garage for 2 days like I did in the past. If I break it my hand will be forced..til then I'll let it ride.

Originally Posted by oldman

I looked at the 2018 Mustang, to me it is nicer than the 2017, but really it just is not correct... I guess I'm so use to see fake stuff like face hood scoops on the Mustang that unless it is absolutely functional, it just screams highschool to me. So I guess I've given up on hoping that Ford will actually have functional scoops and extractors..

I honestly don't know, is it function on a V8? dunno, are they functional on the ecoboost.. don't know, is the scoop function on the 2018 V8? don't know. I'm just saying 30 years of non-functional stuff slapped on the hood or rear 1/4 panels has really turned me off on the Ford design.

I'm sure a Ford guy will chime in now and say for 2018 the XYZ stuff actually works... OK then. I've had a few Camaros apart now and everything on the car or stuck to the hoods that look "performance" actually has a performance use.

For instance, the second trans cooler on the Camaro is horizontal, it looks like it will take air off the grill and then duct it under the car, this will have even more function given a splitter (less air under the car, more negative pressure). I highly doubt and I don't work on Mustangs that new front of the Mustang uses any air draft from grill to any type or horizontal cooler. My point is just everything on the Camaro is functional and for decades now everything or almost everything on a Mustang "looks fast".

The extractors on the 13-14 are functional not sure about the S550 but seems petty regardless. Cowl bulges aren't needed either should we get rid of those too?

[whiteboyblues2001]

Originally Posted by FastCarFanBoy

Cowl bulges aren't needed either should we get rid of those too?

The shape of the cowl on the 2016-2018 Camaros actually provide structural support (that is why there are several "creases", if you will, that form triangles). This allows the hood panel to be thinner, and hence reduce weight (and perhaps cost as well). Take a closer look at the hood, and you will see what I mean. Light weight is an obvious advantage in a sports car, and one of the main goals of the 6th Gen design was to reduce as much weight as they could. Fake hood scoops, look like crap, don't function, and add weight. Not the same thing...

[FastCarFanBoy]

Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001

The shape of the cowl on the 2016-2018 Camaros actually provide structural support (that is why there are several "creases", if you will, that form triangles). This allows the hood panel to be thinner, and hence reduce weight (and perhaps cost as well). Take a closer look at the hood, and you will see what I mean. Light weight is an obvious advantage in a sports car, and one of the main goals of the 6th Gen design was to reduce as much weight as they could. Fake hood scoops, look like crap, don't function, and add weight. Not the same thing...

That's cool , how bout in the 5th gen was that a structural design cowl there? was the Knight Rider slit functional?

[whiteboyblues2001]

Originally Posted by FastCarFanBoy

That's cool , how bout in the 5th gen was that a structural design cowl there? was the Knight Rider slit functional?

Yes the cowl does. Anytime you have large panels, you either would need thick material, structural support underneath, or some kind of creases or curves (think arches). So the cowl on the 5th gen does provide some structural support, but the mailslot (as it has been called) does not. And if you read my earlier post, I explicitly called out the mailslot as being RICE, and that I don't like it. The only RICE I like is the kind you eat.

Well.... okay, I do like sake, which is rice wine, but I digress...

[FastCarFanBoy]

Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001

Yes the cowl does. Anytime you have large panels, you either would need thick material, structural support underneath, or some kind of creases or curves (think arches). So the cowl on the 5th gen does provide some structural support, but the mailslot (as it has been called) does not. And if you read my earlier post, I explicitly called out the mailslot as being RICE, and that I don't like it. The only RICE I like is the kind you eat.

Well.... okay, I do like sake, which is rice wine, but I digress...

my response was to oldman's rant about non functional design cues , which a hood cowl and the mail slot would fall into. he may very well have owned a 5th gen with one of those abominable feature on it.

I've watched enough Velocity channel to understand how you put structure into a flat piece of metal to understand that a cowl design can add rigidity to the hood , but a cowl is a design cue throw back to the 60's/70's and not a structural necessity.

[Mountain]

I will say this: I really like the Coyote. That is such a sweet engine. Now, don't get me wrong, I love the LT1, great engine, but if I had to choose between the two? Yeah, I'd take the Coyote. Why? Good displacement. DOHC with TiVCT. Very durable high-RPM capability. Great OEM intake system. Great heads. Not overly complicated. A very power-dense powertrain platform. Plus, it sounds good. The Coyote Gen3 is awesome, but I'm not a fan of the spray bores - I'd rather opt for a minute displacement decrease and use the lined Gen2 block.