[FastCarFanBoy]

Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001

The problem is, I don't think they will. The Ford fans are so fanatical, they will side with Ford even if Henry Ford slept with their wives and gave them herpes.

That's why we see the same mistakes by Ford. Chevy didn't add enough cooling capacity when they designed the C7 Corvette. They got embarrassed when magazines were trying to test the Z06, and it went into limp mode. BUT, they learned their lesson, that's why the Camaro has coolers up the ying yang. And it works great. On track, off track, anywhere.

But Ford got embarrassed by the whole GT350 Base/Tech Pack/Track Pack overheating issue, and all the Ford guys attacked the buyers. Even Zeke is here on this board preemptively saying that anyone who buys a PP2 and takes it to the track is a dummy. He's already blaming folks who haven't even bought the car yet, let alone complained. Wow.

But this time that argument is even more pathetic. Because, at least with the GT350 the jerks could argue "hey, there was a track pack with the coolers you know. Why didn't you get that?" But now they don't even have that argument with the GT, because coolers aren't even an option on this car. A car they spent tuning the MRC and aerodynamics at VIR with a race car driver giving feedback at how it does ON A TRACK AT 140 MPH. Why even waste the effort and money on that? Why adjust the aerodynamics for 140 MPH turns on a track? Why put tires on it that are only good on the track? Why not offer PP2 with the auto, or in a convertible?

Because their goal was to beat the 1LE ON A TRACK, and they hoped that it wouldn't overheat, but it did. Now they are backpedaling and saying, "well, it wasn't meant for the track".

Zeke is right in that you would have to be an idiot to not know that a car with the capabilities of the 350 and PP2 would absolutely have to have coolers for sustained track usage. I have never been on a road course and I know this just from driving high performance cars on the street.

Originally Posted by kttxz06

haha, well said. Ford guys are something else. It's like some addiction. Once they own 1 Ford, it's almost impossible to pry that Blue Oval from their dead hands.



Even with facts right in front of them. Ford is losing the battle. Chevy and Dodge are putting out constantly better performers. On track and at the drag strip.



They have a loooooooooooooooooong way to go before they make a car to wipe the Zl1 1LE off it's block. Even the Zl1 for that matter. They have nothing in the tank for Dodge right now either. They are banking on the 500 being their Halo Mustang and at this point, who knows how it's going to perform.

I wish I knew your dealer.

[ST1LE]

Originally Posted by FastCarFanBoy

Zeke is right in that you would have to be an idiot to not know that a car with the capabilities of the 350 and PP2 would absolutely have to have coolers for sustained track usage. I have never been on a road course and I know this just from driving high performance cars on the street.

I am kinda with you guys here. It is easy for guys like us to say this right. True enthusiasts that love cars and know a ton about cars we dont ever even intend to buy.

What I cant quite accept as okay, is the everyday person. Some guy or girl that decides they want to start getting in to some tracking etc, loves Mustangs or loves the PP2. Ford doesnt make this very clear to those buyer's, and we arent all forum junkies. Dealers are certainly clueless, and would lie if they had to.

Ford did this whole PP2 thing for the marketing of it all, and to say it can hang with the 1LE. They dont give a damn what consumers get screwed in the process, and thats shady af man.

[Zeke.Malvo]

Originally Posted by ST1LE

I am kinda with you guys here. It is easy for guys like us to say this right. True enthusiasts that love cars and know a ton about cars we dont ever even intend to buy.

What I cant quite accept as okay, is the everyday person. Some guy or girl that decides they want to start getting in to some tracking etc, loves Mustangs or loves the PP2. Ford doesnt make this very clear to those buyer's, and we arent all forum junkies. Dealers are certainly clueless, and would lie if they had to.

Ford did this whole PP2 thing for the marketing of it all, and to say it can hang with the 1LE. They dont give a damn what consumers get screwed in the process, and thats shady af man.

Marketing? I have never seen any advertisements or commercials for their PP1 or PP2 packages. Ever.

[whiteboyblues2001]

Originally Posted by FastCarFanBoy

Zeke is right in that you would have to be an idiot to not know that a car with the capabilities of the 350 and PP2 would absolutely have to have coolers for sustained track usage. I have never been on a road course and I know this just from driving high performance cars on the street.

I disagree with "you would have to be an idiot" theory, because there are always going to be some newbies who want to start to go to the track, but aren't yet experts. Ford needs to make it clear what the car can/cannot do with regards to the track with their offerings. The GT350 was clearly marketed as a track capable car. Yes, there was a track pack and tech pack, and track pack does imply it is for the track, but a newbie may not know that it is REQUIRED for the track, ESPECIALLY on a car named "GT350". To me, the name "GT350" is already a track capable car and the track pack is for those who want to win at the track rather than just go to the track for an HPDE type event.

If this were a Corolla, then yeah sure. But on a GT350? Who's idea was it to make ANY GT350 not track capable?

Now we have Ford coming out and telling the automotive press that the new PP2's MRC and aerodynamics were tuned at VIR to create optimal downforce in 140 MPH turns by a race car driver. Oh, and by the way, there is NO TRACK PACK, that would imply that you would want said track pack to go on a track.

So, how is some newbie supposed to learn that this new car that Ford was tuning at a track, bragging about it's track prowess, that comes with track specific tires that suck on the street, supposed to know that it can't go around a track? There isn't even a track pack option to imply that the non-track pack version might have issues.

[whiteboyblues2001]

Here is a direct quote from Mark Schaller, Ford Mustang Brand Manager, from a Hot Rod Magazine article:

“There’s always a tradeoff between performance and day-to-day livability,” he told us, “The engineering team spent countless hours at VIR, Grattan, Gingerman, NOLA, and at the Ford Proving Grounds, developing and refining this package. It’s understated [in appearance], but has so much grip that it’s perfect for someone who doesn’t race cars every weekend. It’s give you great feedback and you feel comfortable because you know when you’re pushing it too far,” he added.

This is clearly implying that you could track it on some weekends in some HPDE type events (because someone who races their car every other weekend, fits this description). And this is coming from Ford directly.

Link to article: https://www.hotrod.com/articles/we-g...-fast-package/

[ST1LE]

Originally Posted by Zeke.Malvo

Marketing? I have never seen any advertisements or commercials for their PP1 or PP2 packages. Ever.

What about magazine H2H articles? Don't you think Ford wanted a car they could put up against the 1LE? Or did you just want to argue for the sake of it?

[FastCarFanBoy]

Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001

I disagree with "you would have to be an idiot" theory, because there are always going to be some newbies who want to start to go to the track, but aren't yet experts. Ford needs to make it clear what the car can/cannot do with regards to the track with their offerings. The GT350 was clearly marketed as a track capable car. Yes, there was a track pack and tech pack, and track pack does imply it is for the track, but a newbie may not know that it is REQUIRED for the track, ESPECIALLY on a car named "GT350". To me, the name "GT350" is already a track capable car and the track pack is for those who want to win at the track rather than just go to the track for an HPDE type event.

If this were a Corolla, then yeah sure. But on a GT350? Who's idea was it to make ANY GT350 not track capable?

Now we have Ford coming out and telling the automotive press that the new PP2's MRC and aerodynamics were tuned at VIR to create optimal downforce in 140 MPH turns by a race car driver. Oh, and by the way, there is NO TRACK PACK, that would imply that you would want said track pack to go on a track.

So, how is some newbie supposed to learn that this new car that Ford was tuning at a track, bragging about it's track prowess, that comes with track specific tires that suck on the street, supposed to know that it can't go around a track? There isn't even a track pack option to imply that the non-track pack version might have issues.

The base/tech 350's were made for the people who weren't going to track the car that either wanted the cheapest version or a version with creature comforts...then you had the TP and R for track folks.

The PP2 absolutely should be track sustainable or should not have been made.

[FastCarFanBoy]

Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001

Here is a direct quote from Mark Schaller, Ford Mustang Brand Manager, from a Hot Rod Magazine article:

“There’s always a tradeoff between performance and day-to-day livability,” he told us, “The engineering team spent countless hours at VIR, Grattan, Gingerman, NOLA, and at the Ford Proving Grounds, developing and refining this package. It’s understated [in appearance], but has so much grip that it’s perfect for someone who doesn’t race cars every weekend. It’s give you great feedback and you feel comfortable because you know when you’re pushing it too far,” he added.

This is clearly implying that you could track it on some weekends in some HPDE type events (because someone who races their car every other weekend, fits this description). And this is coming from Ford directly.

Link to article: https://www.hotrod.com/articles/we-g...-fast-package/

maybe those "countless hours" they spent at the track were in 15min stints...LOL

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001

Here is a direct quote from Mark Schaller, Ford Mustang Brand Manager, from a Hot Rod Magazine article:

“There’s always a tradeoff between performance and day-to-day livability,” he told us, “The engineering team spent countless hours at VIR, Grattan, Gingerman, NOLA, and at the Ford Proving Grounds, developing and refining this package. It’s understated [in appearance], but has so much grip that it’s perfect for someone who doesn’t race cars every weekend. It’s give you great feedback and you feel comfortable because you know when you’re pushing it too far,” he added.

This is clearly implying that you could track it on some weekends in some HPDE type events (because someone who races their car every other weekend, fits this description). And this is coming from Ford directly.

Link to article: https://www.hotrod.com/articles/we-g...-fast-package/

Originally Posted by FastCarFanBoy

maybe those "countless hours" they spent at the track were in 15min stints...LOL

[ChevyRules]

Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001

I disagree with "you would have to be an idiot" theory, because there are always going to be some newbies who want to start to go to the track, but aren't yet experts. Ford needs to make it clear what the car can/cannot do with regards to the track with their offerings. The GT350 was clearly marketed as a track capable car. Yes, there was a track pack and tech pack, and track pack does imply it is for the track, but a newbie may not know that it is REQUIRED for the track, ESPECIALLY on a car named "GT350". To me, the name "GT350" is already a track capable car and the track pack is for those who want to win at the track rather than just go to the track for an HPDE type event.

If this were a Corolla, then yeah sure. But on a GT350? Who's idea was it to make ANY GT350 not track capable?

Now we have Ford coming out and telling the automotive press that the new PP2's MRC and aerodynamics were tuned at VIR to create optimal downforce in 140 MPH turns by a race car driver. Oh, and by the way, there is NO TRACK PACK, that would imply that you would want said track pack to go on a track.

So, how is some newbie supposed to learn that this new car that Ford was tuning at a track, bragging about it's track prowess, that comes with track specific tires that suck on the street, supposed to know that it can't go around a track? There isn't even a track pack option to imply that the non-track pack version might have issues.

You should always research the car before you buy it. Doesn't matter what marketing name they give it, it's on the buyer to search what that car comes with, what is optional, etc.



Ignorance is not a valid excuse.

[BlaqWhole]

Here's an idea. And it's not a jab at the Mustang. But, is it possible that maybe, just maybe, the S550 is not capable of keeping up with the 6th Gen Camaro on the same price level? Is it possible that in order to get the same handling, they would have to creep into Shelby price territory? And could it be possible that the 6th Gen chassis is just soo good that the Mustang cannot compete? Or, more likely, Ford is not able to make a GT that can beat the SS 1LE while NOT beating the Shelby as well. Maybe the margin between the SS 1LE and the Shelby is soo close that if the GT hits that spot they will take out the Shelby too. Whatever the case is, I think it is overwhelmingly obvious that this round goes to the Camaro. But keep in mind that the Mustang was on top for quite a while in the 5th Gen.

[Chadicus]

Originally Posted by ChevyRules

You should always research the car before you buy it. Doesn't matter what marketing name they give it, it's on the buyer to search what that car comes with, what is optional, etc.



Ignorance is not a valid excuse.

Ford advertised the 350 as "The most track capable Mustang ever." Not the track pack one. Or only the R. The 350. Had I bought one and had it overheat I would have been PISSED. That is why there is a lawsuit over it. My SS has never overheated. Ever. Not on a track and damn sure not on a highway.

I would also never expect a car with Cup 2s to not be able to be tracked. For street use the PP1 tires are better. What exactly is the point of the PP2? Cool wheels and ridiculous tires to talk about at cars and coffee?

[Chadicus]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Here's an idea. And it's not a jab at the Mustang. But, is it possible that maybe, just maybe, the S550 is not capable of keeping up with the 6th Gen Camaro on the same price level? Is it possible that in order to get the same handling, they would have to creep into Shelby price territory? And could it be possible that the 6th Gen chassis is just soo good that the Mustang cannot compete? Or, more likely, Ford is not able to make a GT that can beat the SS 1LE while NOT beating the Shelby as well. Maybe the margin between the SS 1LE and the Shelby is soo close that if the GT hits that spot they will take out the Shelby too. Whatever the case is, I think it is overwhelmingly obvious that this round goes to the Camaro. But keep in mind that the Mustang was on top for quite a while in the 5th Gen.

Not only is that possible it is likely. Ford doesnt have technology trickling down from higher performance cars to the Mustang like Chevy does with Camaro getting Vette and Cadillac tech.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by FastCarFanBoy

The base/tech 350's were made for the people who weren't going to track the car that either wanted the cheapest version or a version with creature comforts...then you had the TP and R for track folks.

The PP2 absolutely should be track sustainable or should not have been made.

The base/tech GT350 didn’t make sense either. A non-track, track car. Would you have to disclose that that when it’s time to sell? How awkward.