[lt4camaro]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

And then what would they do with all the leftover LT4s which they spent tons of money and R&D to develop, perfect, and work into the Z06 and ZL1 chassis? Just scrap them? Throw them into the SS and bring that MSRP up? And then what about all the LT1s? And then what happens after that when the SS costs as much as a ZL1, the ZL1 costs as much as a Z06, and the Z06 becomes useless because it is now basically as expensive as a ZR1? And then something comes along that has more HP than the LT4 powered SS so we do this all over again until even the 1LS costs as much as a ZL1. I exaggerate but surely you see why this would be impossible and very impractical to do.

I wouldn't want a LT5 powered ZL1 because then it would cost much more than I got it for and at that price I'd just get something else. I am an enthusiast. But I'm practical. And the LT5 going into the ZL1 would take away from what the ZR1 is which is one of a kind. Look at it like this, V6 guys and turbo 4 guys would love the LT1. But what would that make the SS? So to me, I love the Camaro, but the Z06 is a step up and the ZR1 is top dog and that is how it should remain.

The ZL1 from day one was competitive to a hellcat in the 1/4 mile but I do believe the Hellcat would beat it more than it Lost. Roll racing the Hellcat had it. So for the majority of street used vehicles, what good was a 1LE. What bragging rights did the non 1LE ZL1 have. Now the Hellcat is further ahead with 797 horse and we know the 2020 MY GT500 is going to hurt the ZL1 in its present state.

Move down to the SS, That is now the underdog for the MY 2018 compared to the Mustang GT and maybe even the SRT 392 challenger at 485 horse.

Sales have tanked, yeah Camaro doesn't need to do anything...

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by BradfordCamaro

GMs reply will not be a higher HP car. Or necessarily a faster one.

It will just be a Better car.
Better features. Better Ride. Better Handling. Better weight.Better Price.

Availability and lower price.

Exactly. Balance!!

Originally Posted by lt4camaro

The ZL1 from day one was competitive to a hellcat in the 1/4 mile but I do believe the Hellcat would beat it more than it Lost. Roll racing the Hellcat had it. So for the majority of street used vehicles, what good was a 1LE. What bragging rights did the non 1LE ZL1 have. Now the Hellcat is further ahead with 797 horse and we know the 2020 MY GT500 is going to hurt the ZL1 in its present state.

Move down to the SS, That is now the underdog for the MY 2018 compared to the Mustang GT and maybe even the SRT 392 challenger at 485 horse.

Sales have tanked, yeah Camaro doesn't need to do anything...

Triple threat. GM makes the most well balanced cars. The ZL1 is included. Dodge took an old platform and threw a $25K+ engine in it. It is good for straight lines and that is it. And even at that you have to invest money in tires and possibly a driveshaft to use that power effectively which in some cases ended in a voided warranty for some individuals. Ford did the same thing. They built a car that could corner well and do nothing else. It too had a $25K+ engine, $16K CF wheels, and nothing else to justify it's price tag. GM's reply was to build a car that could do everything well and in the process they built a car that could beat the Shelby on a track, beat a stock HC in the quarter mile, and costed less than both those cars while offering full options and features that neither of those competing cars have. The LT4 engine is a $14K engine which is $10K less than the HC and Shelby engines. So add $10K to the ZL1 and then what? It would be more expensive than the competition and well out of the reach for the majority of it's fan base and it would elbow in on Z06 price territory.

But anyway, back to the performance aspect. The HC can beat the ZL1 ONLY in a roll race and ONLY after getting up to speed. The Shelby can't beat the ZL1 in anything at all. So we have a car that loses marginally to the HC in one aspect while convincingly beating the HC AND the Shelby in every other remaining performance category, lol!! What more do people want? The Hellcat is on an unchanged platform. It came out for 2015 which was the end of the 5th Gen Camaro. We are now in the 6th Gen Camaro while the HC still remains unchanged except for a more powerful version of the same engine. Meanwhile GM is working on the 7th Gen which will be an even better balanced and more powerful Camaro. And the Hellcat will probably still be the same at that point. And nobody still knows anything detailed about the Shelby which probably won't even be out for 2019, lol!! SO the answer isn't to just throw HP at the car. Besides, I don't think anyone wants to bang heads with Dodge in the HP department anyway. The answer is the same as it's always been. Build a better balanced triple threat Camaro.

[396ssrat]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Exactly. Balance!!

Triple threat. GM makes the most well balanced cars. The ZL1 is included. Dodge took an old platform and threw a $25K+ engine in it. It is good for straight lines and that is it. And even at that you have to invest money in tires and possibly a driveshaft to use that power effectively which in some cases ended in a voided warranty for some individuals. Ford did the same thing. They built a car that could corner well and do nothing else. It too had a $25K+ engine, $16K CF wheels, and nothing else to justify it's price tag. GM's reply was to build a car that could do everything well and in the process they built a car that could beat the Shelby on a track, beat a stock HC in the quarter mile, and costed less than both those cars while offering full options and features that neither of those competing cars have. The LT4 engine is a $14K engine which is $10K less than the HC and Shelby engines. So add $10K to the ZL1 and then what? It would be more expensive than the competition and well out of the reach for the majority of it's fan base and it would elbow in on Z06 price territory.

But anyway, back to the performance aspect. The HC can beat the ZL1 ONLY in a roll race and ONLY after getting up to speed. The Shelby can't beat the ZL1 in anything at all. So we have a car that loses marginally to the HC in one aspect while convincingly beating the HC AND the Shelby in every other remaining performance category, lol!! What more do people want? The Hellcat is on an unchanged platform. It came out for 2015 which was the end of the 5th Gen Camaro. We are now in the 6th Gen Camaro while the HC still remains unchanged except for a more powerful version of the same engine. Meanwhile GM is working on the 7th Gen which will be an even better balanced and more powerful Camaro. And the Hellcat will probably still be the same at that point. And nobody still knows anything detailed about the Shelby which probably won't even be out for 2019, lol!! SO the answer isn't to just throw HP at the car. Besides, I don't think anyone wants to bang heads with Dodge in the HP department anyway. The answer is the same as it's always been. Build a better balanced triple threat Camaro.

What is a roll race? Some kind of bandaid for any vehicle that can't launch?

[RedonBlackRS]

Originally Posted by 396ssrat

What is a roll race? Some kind of bandaid for any vehicle that can't launch?

Yes.

And what 99% of real-world races are, so unfortunately they matter to consumers.

Once the Corvette goes mid-engine, the lid will be off of the Camaro and they will finally be able to compete in the Shelby-Hellcat arena in the minds of average Joes with some headline-grabbing bs.

If we're lucky Z cars of the future will hopefully have names akin to Lockheed SR-71 Blackbird, Boeing B-52 Stratofortress, etc. GM trademarking Colorado ZR2 Bison, and implementing Colorado/Silverado Z71 TrailBoss gives me hope for things like Camaro ZL1 Predator, Corvette Z06 Admiral, ZR1 Emperor, Silverado ZR2 Mastodon, etc....

Sorry for rambling, but I want to see improvement.

[lt4camaro]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Exactly. Balance!!

Triple threat. GM makes the most well balanced cars. The ZL1 is included. Dodge took an old platform and threw a $25K+ engine in it. It is good for straight lines and that is it. And even at that you have to invest money in tires and possibly a driveshaft to use that power effectively which in some cases ended in a voided warranty for some individuals. Ford did the same thing. They built a car that could corner well and do nothing else. It too had a $25K+ engine, $16K CF wheels, and nothing else to justify it's price tag. GM's reply was to build a car that could do everything well and in the process they built a car that could beat the Shelby on a track, beat a stock HC in the quarter mile, and costed less than both those cars while offering full options and features that neither of those competing cars have. The LT4 engine is a $14K engine which is $10K less than the HC and Shelby engines. So add $10K to the ZL1 and then what? It would be more expensive than the competition and well out of the reach for the majority of it's fan base and it would elbow in on Z06 price territory.

But anyway, back to the performance aspect. The HC can beat the ZL1 ONLY in a roll race and ONLY after getting up to speed. The Shelby can't beat the ZL1 in anything at all. So we have a car that loses marginally to the HC in one aspect while convincingly beating the HC AND the Shelby in every other remaining performance category, lol!! What more do people want? The Hellcat is on an unchanged platform. It came out for 2015 which was the end of the 5th Gen Camaro. We are now in the 6th Gen Camaro while the HC still remains unchanged except for a more powerful version of the same engine. Meanwhile GM is working on the 7th Gen which will be an even better balanced and more powerful Camaro. And the Hellcat will probably still be the same at that point. And nobody still knows anything detailed about the Shelby which probably won't even be out for 2019, lol!! SO the answer isn't to just throw HP at the car. Besides, I don't think anyone wants to bang heads with Dodge in the HP department anyway. The answer is the same as it's always been. Build a better balanced triple threat Camaro.

The main point is, the entire challenger line up outsells the Camaro badly, so how outdated is that? Ford had nothing new (supercharged) to compete with the ZL1 in 2017, 2018 and there should be nothing till 2020. There last GT500 was 2014 which shamed the Gen 5 ZL1. The GT350 and the GT350R are cars basically competing by themselves in naturally aspirated territory. The SS 1LE although is a competitor to the GT350 as it clearly destroyed any Mustang GT in any form and the R is all by itself. The second point is Dodge and Ford just keep making good positive changes and great cars to keep them interesting and selling well. I would never own either car, but its clear Camaro cannot rest on its merits and price structure and remain a competitive threat. The big 3 guns right now are supercharged (so will the 2020 GT500) Camaro has to step up in that department and make the SS a better, cheaper, more powerful better looking car.

[URBAN LEGEND]

Originally Posted by 396ssrat

What is a roll race? Some kind of bandaid for any vehicle that can't launch?

Could be passing power for dumb asses on the left lane on the highway.

[Blackdevil77]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

And then what would they do with all the leftover LT4s which they spent tons of money and R&D to develop, perfect, and work into the Z06 and ZL1 chassis? Just scrap them? Throw them into the SS and bring that MSRP up? And then what about all the LT1s? And then what happens after that when the SS costs as much as a ZL1, the ZL1 costs as much as a Z06, and the Z06 becomes useless because it is now basically as expensive as a ZR1? And then something comes along that has more HP than the LT4 powered SS so we do this all over again until even the 1LS costs as much as a ZL1. I exaggerate but surely you see why this would be impossible and very impractical to do.

I wouldn't want a LT5 powered ZL1 because then it would cost much more than I got it for and at that price I'd just get something else. I am an enthusiast. But I'm practical. And the LT5 going into the ZL1 would take away from what the ZR1 is which is one of a kind. Look at it like this, V6 guys and turbo 4 guys would love the LT1. But what would that make the SS? So to me, I love the Camaro, but the Z06 is a step up and the ZR1 is top dog and that is how it should remain.

No, continue to use them and make the LT5 an option for those that want it. They still have the hellcat with the hellcat engine, they just added another more powerful variant. They didn't care about taking anything that was once "one of a kind" from the Demon, which is even more exclusive than the ZR1. Why not make a LT5 ZL1 variant and sell it for 85k and keep the LT4 version for the ones that would rather have that and don't want the extra power? Basically, why not do exactly what Dodge did? I'd pay 85k for an LT5 powered ZL1

[lt4camaro]

Originally Posted by 396ssrat

What is a roll race? Some kind of bandaid for any vehicle that can't launch?

And there is a shit load of roll racing going on in everytown USA on the streets where the 99% of us spend our time along with a lot of pole to pole street stuff from a dig.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by lt4camaro

The main point is, the entire challenger line up outsells the Camaro badly, so how outdated is that?

No it doesn't. From what I've seen there have been times when the Challenger has outsold the Camaro and Mustang. But as a whole, the Chally is the worst seller of the three by far. And even if it did, which it didn't, but for argument's sake, if it did, it is still an old and outdated platform. Sales does not change that fact.

Originally Posted by lt4camaro

Ford had nothing new (supercharged) to compete with the ZL1 in 2017, 2018 and there should be nothing till 2020. There last GT500 was 2014 which shamed the Gen 5 ZL1.

The last GT500 needed major upgrades to beat the ZL1. They had to up engine displacement, engine compression ratio, blower displacement, AND increase the boost to get it to 663. Even at that it had nowhere even close to the options of the 5th Gen ZL1, it still had a solid axle, and it was not refined like the ZL1...and since then it disappeared and has not returned and probably won't return until 2020 which will be 3 MYs into the 6th Gen ZL1 production. And after that I doubt it'll beat or even match the ZL1 1LE on the track. So that is hardly anything to worry about.

Originally Posted by lt4camaro

The GT350 and the GT350R are cars basically competing by themselves in naturally aspirated territory. The SS 1LE although is a competitor to the GT350 as it clearly destroyed any Mustang GT in any form and the R is all by itself.

And look at the price point. The standard non-R GT350 cannot beat the SS 1LE despite costing almost as much as a ZL1. The R version costs $10K more than the SS 1LE and can barely beat it. And that is with a high revving FPC engine and light weight CF wheels. On the same price level there is no Mustang that can beat a similarly priced Camaro at anything performance related.

Originally Posted by lt4camaro

The second point is Dodge and Ford just keep making good positive changes and great cars to keep them interesting and selling well. I would never own either car, but its clear Camaro cannot rest on its merits and price structure and remain a competitive threat. The big 3 guns right now are supercharged (so will the 2020 GT500) Camaro has to step up in that department and make the SS a better, cheaper, more powerful better looking car.

What changes? The Chally has had the same body for over 10 years. And the Hellcat has been unchanged since 2015 except fr minor cosmetic differences. The GT500 is nonexistent at this point. The GT350 just came out in 2015 with the R coming out in 16. Neither of those have changed one bit. Not in design, performance, nothing. The ZL1 showed up in 17 and beat all competitors at everything. That was last year bro. And even now it is just speculation that anything will actually beat it. SO what are you guys all soo panicked about? It has been 1 year since the Zl1 showed up. And now because of some press announcements all of a sudden the Zl1 needs a LT 5 engine? I mean, really dude? It's been one year since it showed up. It just got here. The only thing remarkable about any of the competition is the HC getting 90 more HP for 2019 and the GT500 for 2020. Come on bro...

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by Blackdevil77

No, continue to use them and make the LT5 an option for those that want it. They still have the hellcat with the hellcat engine, they just added another more powerful variant. They didn't care about taking anything that was once "one of a kind" from the Demon, which is even more exclusive than the ZR1. Why not make a LT5 ZL1 variant and sell it for 85k and keep the LT4 version for the ones that would rather have that and don't want the extra power? Basically, why not do exactly what Dodge did? I'd pay 85k for an LT5 powered ZL1

Cars have price points and goals they need to meet. There are people with business degrees and years of marketing and business expertise who sit around in board rooms for hours on end crunching numbers and figuring this stuff out. It isn't as simple as throwing an LT5 engine in as an option. Dodge had this planned for a long time. They didn't just one day wake up and say "hey let's throw 90HP at the HC". And GM has something planned. But it isn't going to happen tomorrow.

[Can'tHave2MuchHP]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

No it doesn't. From what I've seen there have been times when the Challenger has outsold the Camaro and Mustang. But as a whole, the Chally is the worst seller of the three by far. And even if it did, which it didn't, but for argument's sake, if it did, it is still an old and outdated platform. Sales does not change that fact.

The last GT500 needed major upgrades to beat the ZL1. They had to up engine displacement, engine compression ratio, blower displacement, AND increase the boost to get it to 663. Even at that it had nowhere even close to the options of the 5th Gen ZL1, it still had a solid axle, and it was not refined like the ZL1...and since then it disappeared and has not returned and probably won't return until 2020 which will be 3 MYs into the 6th Gen ZL1 production. And after that I doubt it'll beat or even match the ZL1 1LE on the track. So that is hardly anything to worry about.

And look at the price point. The standard non-R GT350 cannot beat the SS 1LE despite costing almost as much as a ZL1. The R version costs $10K more than the SS 1LE and can barely beat it. And that is with a high revving FPC engine and light weight CF wheels. On the same price level there is no Mustang that can beat a similarly priced Camaro at anything performance related.

What changes? The Chally has had the same body for over 10 years. And the Hellcat has been unchanged since 2015 except fr minor cosmetic differences. The GT500 is nonexistent at this point. The GT350 just came out in 2015 with the R coming out in 16. Neither of those have changed one bit. Not in design, performance, nothing. The ZL1 showed up in 17 and beat all competitors at everything. That was last year bro. And even now it is just speculation that anything will actually beat it. SO what are you guys all soo panicked about? It has been 1 year since the Zl1 showed up. And now because of some press announcements all of a sudden the Zl1 needs a LT 5 engine? I mean, really dude? It's been one year since it showed up. It just got here. The only thing remarkable about any of the competition is the HC getting 90 more HP for 2019 and the GT500 for 2020. Come on bro...

You make strong points. If you look at it from the way you are, which is looking at every aspect, there's no question that Chevy/Camaro is king.

The HP warriors will always complain about the one aspect of roll racing/peak HP though. Is what it is. I partake sometimes.

But you guys have to give the ZL1 more credit if you think it's behind. The ZL1 is a $60,000-$70,000 Supercar killer. It makes BMW M Cars look like unrefined slugs. The ZL1 1LE (Which is shocks, engine mounts, and aero away from a regular ZL1) shows 98% of the supercars cars in the WORLD how to go around a corner. The ZL1 literally does everything. It can be daily driven, it can kill the canyons, rips at the track, it can handle the drag strip, it looks great, and it mods easy. The only complain is the blower for me but that's just my opinion. Changing the blower would introduce a whole new mess of problems/costs. Pretty much any car that beats a ZL1 in more than 1 or 2 aspects costs more than $200,000. Period. The Challenger isn't even on the radar of it in any comparison except HP/drag strip. The Mustang loses at all levels (SS vs GT, SS 1LE vs GT350, ZL1 vs GT350, ZL1 1LE vs. ?). BMW M cars aren't even close. What else?

[17CamaroZL1]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

And then what would they do with all the leftover LT4s which they spent tons of money and R&D to develop, perfect, and work into the Z06 and ZL1 chassis? Just scrap them? Throw them into the SS and bring that MSRP up? And then what about all the LT1s? And then what happens after that when the SS costs as much as a ZL1, the ZL1 costs as much as a Z06, and the Z06 becomes useless because it is now basically as expensive as a ZR1? And then something comes along that has more HP than the LT4 powered SS so we do this all over again until even the 1LS costs as much as a ZL1. I exaggerate but surely you see why this would be impossible and very impractical to do.

I wouldn't want a LT5 powered ZL1 because then it would cost much more than I got it for and at that price I'd just get something else. I am an enthusiast. But I'm practical. And the LT5 going into the ZL1 would take away from what the ZR1 is which is one of a kind. Look at it like this, V6 guys and turbo 4 guys would love the LT1. But what would that make the SS? So to me, I love the Camaro, but the Z06 is a step up and the ZR1 is top dog and that is how it should remain.

You're over thinking this. The LT5 is pretty much just an LT4 with a bigger blower and added port injection. It doesn't and wouldn't cost a dime more, save for the addition of port injection, with its added injector/s and fuel lines. There would be no scrapping of engines. They would simply stop bolting on the tiny blower, unless they decide to drop it in something else. Maybe a sport truck or SUV. As far as the LT5 needing to be perfected for the ZL1, the Z can easily handle the 100 extra horses, and probably do it better than the Vette does, just like it did the LT4. If any adjustments in the PTM was needed for the road course, it would be some minor tweaks to roll on the power a tad slower with the extra grunt, but I believe the current settings would handle it just fine.

The ZR1 would still be just as special and still the fastest car due to the lower weight and wider tires. The ZL1 would then equal or beat the Z06, but I still don't think that would affect the sell of the Z06, because if someone wants a really fast Vette, they're going to buy the ZR1 if they can afford it, and if not, they'll buy the Z06 no matter how the Camaro compares to it.

I would even venture to say that the Camaro team has already been playing with Zs with LT5s or at least engines making that same level of power, and just simply waiting to release it at some point. My guess would be shortly after or right before Ford starts selling the GT500.

[Revalot]

I can't imagine a car being out for only a year and a half, and buyers already want change, the car is great, perfect pretty much, they need to fix the M6 for full power when you take off hard. But I'm a LS fan, and the $ of a ZL1(LT4) 1LE , or ZL1 is great. Stringray and Z06 are not designed as well.
Dear GM ! I have a yard full of Toyotas and for the 1st time I'm coming for a ZL1 1LE, don't change a thing.

[lt4camaro]

Originally Posted by Revalot

I can't imagine a car being out for only a year and a half, and buyers already want change, the car is great, perfect pretty much, they need to fix the M6 for full power when you take off hard. But I'm a LS fan, and the $ of a ZL1(LT4) 1LE , or ZL1 is great. Stringray and Z06 are not designed as well.
Dear GM ! I have a yard full of Toyotas and for the 1st time I'm coming for a ZL1 1LE, don't change a thing.

The ZL1 1LE is a great car, but for the high percentage of people who do want a manual car or a road course car, the ZL1 10 speed auto is the street car warrior that needs to stay on top of its game and that's where the interest is. I do not think anyone wants to change any of the 1LE cars.