[JhonnyGTR]

Originally Posted by Boost Creep

The giant grill opening still has the cross bar like a normal bumper, it's just grill colored now. As far as I know, bumper color doesn't effect air flow.

It's just an ugly design trend in the industry currently.


The new Toyota Avalon is the worst, looks like an alien catfish.

Looks like you didn't read what Martin says. Do ya?

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by Weege

Hard to buy the notion that large grilles are a functional necessity to provide more air. V12's, V10's, and the many auto diesels than were commonplace in Europe all seemed to breathe just fine with ordinary fronts. Even if there is merit to the theory of needing more air, the blacked out/body colored fangs look of the SS does more to drop jaws of critics than open airways for engines.

They breathed just fine for the times they were in and the level of thermal efficiency that was deemed acceptable. And the fuel economy sucked. The reason a Camaro can cruise on the hwy at 75 - 80 mph and hover around 30 mpg is because of a number of technological advances, including huge generational differences in aerodynamics, transmission technology, and engine thermal efficiency. Used to be you could bias for fuel economy or you could bias for performance....what’s your preference. Now you can actually get both.

[JhonnyGTR]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

JhonnyGTR,

Thanks for the photo-walk down memory lane. About the last two pics...I know how “thrilled” everyone is about the similar blackout look of the Charger and SS grills, but there is a reason for that. In order to meet EPA regs, engines have to operate a lot more efficiently. For a whole host of reasons, that by and large means “take in a lot more air”. Toyota started down this path a little earlier than others, followed soon by Mazda. Both have engines with better than 40% thermal efficiency. That’s the big catch phrase in engine development these days. Thermal efficiency. For decades, gasoline engines have tended to be in the mid to high 20%s for thermal efficiency. Diesels around low 40s.

Now gasoline engines are borrowing technologies from Diesel engines (direct injection being the most obvious) but are also approaching diesel levels of compression ratio and attempting to get close to diesel levels of thermal efficiency. Once you go down the path of needing a lot more air, you commit to openings like the mouth of a baleen whale. Look at the Lexus (Toyota) spindle grills, the Mazda 3 fascia, and now the grill areas of the Charger, Camaro, and upcoming GT500. All similar.

Por cierto, Thanks for that information, it's really appreciated and make more sense all of this now.

On a side note: I though that the first car that use a Black front bar was the 2011 Dodge charger SRT

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by gpskinzhut

I don't think he's referencing intake efficiency when he says thermal efficiency. I'm reading this as airflow around the engine, not breathability. I'm sure I could be wrong.

In a sense it’s both. Thermal efficiency is a measure of how much of the energy produced from burning fuel actually goes towards moving the wheels. In typical gasoline engines from the mid 1950’s until the late 2000’s it remained within a fairly steady 25 - 30ish %. Diesels with common rail technology came in around high 30s to mid 40s. Now gasoline engines are getting into the high 30s low 40s. Part of the improvement in TE comes from significant improvement in air fuel ratio and drives the need to get more air into the combustion chamber efficiently. That’s why the “flow-tie” is more than a gimmick. I’ll look for a diagram that I used to use that breaks down where the energy from a unit of gasoline goes after combustion. Some goes to heat transfer and can be channeled into the passenger compartment, some is lost to friction and pumping losses, some actually turns the crankshaft (obviously). That is the 30 - 40% I am referring to.

This is very close to the graphic that I used to use. https://goo.gl/images/gTXQJk

My graphic was on my GM laptop. I didn’t keep the graphic when I turned that in.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by JhonnyGTR

Por cierto, Thanks for that information, it's really appreciated and make more sense all of this now.

On a side note: I though that the first car that use a Black front bar was the 2011 Dodge charger SRT

Probably. The bar is a design element. The large grill opening is the air intake part that effects thermal efficiency.

https://goo.gl/images/3yuA3z

[gpskinzhut]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

In a sense it’s both. Thermal efficiency is a measure of how much of the energy produced from burning fuel actually goes towards moving the wheels. In typical gasoline engines from the mid 1950’s until the late 2000’s it remained within a fairly steady 25 - 30ish %. Diesels with common rail technology came in around high 30s to mid 40s. Now gasoline engines are getting into the high 30s low 40s. Part of the improvement in TE comes from significant improvement in air fuel ratio and drives the need to get more air into the combustion chamber efficiently. That’s why the “flow-tie” is more than a gimmick. I’ll look for a diagram that I used to use that breaks down where the energy from a unit of gasoline goes after combustion. Some goes to heat transfer and can be channeled into the passenger compartment, some is lost to friction and pumping losses, some actually turns the crankshaft (obviously). That is the 30 - 40% I am referring to.

This is very close to the graphic that I used to use. https://goo.gl/images/gTXQJk

My graphic was on my GM laptop. I didn’t keep the graphic when I turned that in.

Gotcha!

[Kobra_Klutch]

Speaking of refreshes, check out the 2019 Dodge Challenger Scatpack Widebody along with the Redeye797 and Hellcat. The upgrades on the Scatpack are a game changer.

http://media.fcanorthamerica.com/ima...ryId=969&mid=1

[keon718nyc]

Originally Posted by Kobra_Klutch

Speaking of refreshes, check out the 2019 Dodge Challenger Scatpack Widebody along with the Redeye797 and Hellcat. The upgrades on the Scatpack are a game changer.

http://media.fcanorthamerica.com/ima...ryId=969&mid=1

Yea, the upgrades with the whole wide body and tweaks they made really has the Charger looking real good right now in my eyes.

[gpskinzhut]

Originally Posted by Kobra_Klutch

Speaking of refreshes, check out the 2019 Dodge Challenger Scatpack Widebody along with the Redeye797 and Hellcat. The upgrades on the Scatpack are a game changer.

http://media.fcanorthamerica.com/ima...ryId=969&mid=1

Looks like the same dated Challenger with a widebody kit on it. I don't see how that's game changing.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by gpskinzhut

Looks like the same dated Challenger with a widebody kit on it. I don't see how that's game changing.

You stole my thought balloon. Looks much better, yes. But I wouldn’t call it a game changer. Not liking the hood, though.

[MrChrisLS3]

Originally Posted by gpskinzhut

Looks like the same dated Challenger with a widebody kit on it. I don't see how that's game changing.

I'm not a fan of the tacked on fender flares at all. If you're going to go "widebody" then widen the actual fenders.

[Kobra_Klutch]

Game changing as it relates to the current Scatpack only with it's narrow wheel and tire combo that does very little to handle the 485/475 hp/torque. Also, they've added the line lock feature, launch control, and launch assist (standard); vast improvements over the previous Scats and they've added their adaptive dampening shocks (optional) that were usually just for the SRTs. Game changing indeed!

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by Kobra_Klutch

Game changing as it relates to the current Scatpack only with it's narrow wheel and tire combo that does very little to handle the 485/475 hp/torque. Also, they've added the line lock feature, launch control, and launch assist (standard); vast improvements over the previous Scats and they've added their adaptive dampening shocks (optional) that were usually just for the SRTs. Game changing indeed!

Ok, well since you put it that way.....

[JhonnyGTR]

Originally Posted by Kobra_Klutch

Game changing as it relates to the current Scatpack only with it's narrow wheel and tire combo that does very little to handle the 485/475 hp/torque. Also, they've added the line lock feature, launch control, and launch assist (standard); vast improvements over the previous Scats and they've added their adaptive dampening shocks (optional) that were usually just for the SRTs. Game changing indeed!

That's really...Wuao