[Mountain]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Because the only time they can criticize any Camaro is when they cherry pick the M6 ZL1 specifically for a non-existent "bogging issue". Meanwhile they're still waiting on the GT500 which got pushed back yet again. The PP2 got pushed back. The GT350 is slated for upgrades of who knows what and who knows when and what exactly it'll do is unknown. Ford is the best at keeping things a secret. Why? Because it fails, then they have to go back to the drawing board to see how much they can skimpingly add while still being cheap asses...then it fails again, so they have to push it back again, add more...fail again...and here we are in June of 2018 not knowing exactly what the GT500, GT PP2, or the Gt350 will have or not have, lol!!

Huh? The GT PP2 has been in customer hands for a few months... The GT350 had a press release last week on the updates for 2019... The GT500, yeah, it got pushed back, but it's a MAJOR vehicle change; it's understandable to want to release things when only you know things are right (unlike the 2018 half-MY, hurried "refresh"... excuse me: major engineering change).

[SpeedIsLife]

Originally Posted by ULTRAZLS1

My little truth nugget against the voopoo just too much for the mustang faithful to bear lol

Well it was a really ambitious project, and a pretty sizable risk..it just seems the execution of it so far has been....milquetoast

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by shaffe

IIRC wasn't that document of over rev from a preproduction manual before the car was even released? Do we know for sure they removed because of "public outcry" if not IMO that's not fair to claim that as fact.

Yes. The overrev feature was part of the pre-production manual. IMO, it shows there were concerns about the design from the beginning. First word that it would be removed came in the form a post from a new account with MI for the location after the shit storm

Originally Posted by shaffe

The ZL1 is not a track car, it is meant to be a grand touring car or as I believe hotlap likes to call it a triple threat. It is meant to do everything well in a balanced package. It can tear up the strip, rip up a road course or just be a comfortable 650HP cruiser. The ZLE is a track car. Purpose built for road courses.

Chevy refereed to the ZL1 as the triple threat. The ZL1 is a grand touring car that is meant to do everything well. I personally agree with BlaqWhole that the A10 option is aimed at those primarily interested in drag racing. Similar to the Hellcat. The manual isn't in the same zip code as the A8.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by shaffe

So just so we are on the same page here. Let's just say in bizarro world, the cars were flipped and there was no ZL1 only a Z/28 and no 350 only a 500. The 500 does everything well, and the Z/28 is only good on the track but the 500 edges it out in everything you would criticize the Z/28 correct?

No I wouldn't criticize the Z28. Because that was 2015 when it was last out. Those were different times. The Z28 offered something that was not present in any other Camaro. It did what it was supposed to do and GM moved on. The GT350 then came along, late to the party, swinging at the Z28 in it's last year of production, and is now stuck in 5th Gen performance territory. If GM was making the Z28 now the way it was in 2015 then yea I'd criticize them. But that is neither here nor there and this isn't bizarro world.

Originally Posted by shaffe

Only responding to the bold part, actually MSRP to MSRP the 350R performed
better than the Z/28, while being cheaper, and offering MORE options. Yes dealers put huge markups on the 350 and 350R, just as dealers did with the first Z/28s.

After that though yeah Camaro has been way ahead.

I meant that you couldn't get one cheaper than the Zs.

Originally Posted by shaffe

The ZL1 is not a track car, it is meant to be a grand touring car or as I believe hotlap likes to call it a triple threat. It is meant to do everything well in a balanced package. It can tear up the strip, rip up a road course or just be a comfortable 650HP cruiser. The ZLE is a track car. Purpose built for road courses.

Considering that GM programmed features into the car to prevent it from being launched in the traditional manner, I'd say it's pretty obvious that the emphasis was not on quarter mile performance in the M6 optioned ZL1. And regardless, it still tested out as being way faster than any Mustang at this point. Will everyone be able to get those quarter mile times? Well, will every Mustang be able to get the quarter mile times you guys brag about?

So let me ask you this, you keep trying to find fault or hypocrisy in my statements, why are you not doing the same for your Mustang friends? And why is it ok that only specific GTs can run great times in the hands of specific drivers and that's ok, but it isn't ok for the ZL1? I'd like your honest answer on that one.

Originally Posted by shaffe

In the ask Al section, that is the laymans terms answer to the ZL1 "bog" It's programmed in to protect the drive line. And a lot of the m6 owners that take it to the strip have complained about and continue to complain about.

I don't go to that section so I wouldn't know what they discuss over there. And your very statement clarifies that it is not an issue. It is doing exactly what it was programmed to do. An issue would be if it DIDN'T do what it was supposed to do. It is obvious that GM doesn't want their current top model Camaro causing damage. So they put these protection features in the car. Some people have reported that they had no issue launching the car. Others can't figure it out. That isn't the car's fault. And it is hardly an issue. You know this for a fact.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by Mountain

Huh? The GT PP2 has been in customer hands for a few months... The GT350 had a press release last week on the updates for 2019... The GT500, yeah, it got pushed back, but it's a MAJOR vehicle change; it's understandable to want to release things when only you know things are right (unlike the 2018 half-MY, hurried "refresh"... excuse me: major engineering change).

Ok. And has the PP2 been tested yet? No.

Do we know exactly what these GT350 updates are and how they will affect the car? No.

Do we know anything about the GT500 other than it will have over 700 HP? No.

Originally Posted by hotlap

Chevy refereed to the ZL1 as the triple threat. The ZL1 is a grand touring car that is meant to do everything well. I personally agree with BlaqWhole that the A10 option is aimed at those primarily interested in drag racing. Similar to the Hellcat. The manual isn't in the same zip code as the A8.

Exactly. The M6 will still kick ass in a straight line even tho it's focus is the track. The A10 will still kick ass on the track even tho it an auto trans is better suited for the strip. Any configuration of the ZL1 will beat any Mustang available right now at anything. All well being just a few thousand dollars more expensive than the GTPP2, only slightly more expensive than the GT350, and way cheaper than the GT350R. Not one of these cars, all hovering in the same price range, can match the ZL1 with any trans.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

No I wouldn't criticize the Z28. Because that was 2015 when it was last out. Those were different times. The Z28 offered something that was not present in any other Camaro. It did what it was supposed to do and GM moved on. The GT350 then came along, late to the party, swinging at the Z28 in it's last year of production, and is now stuck in 5th Gen performance territory. If GM was making the Z28 now the way it was in 2015 then yea I'd criticize them. But that is neither here nor there and this isn't bizarro world.

I meant that you couldn't get one cheaper than the Zs.

Considering that GM programmed features into the car to prevent it from being launched in the traditional manner, I'd say it's pretty obvious that the emphasis was not on quarter mile performance in the M6 optioned ZL1. And regardless, it still tested out as being way faster than any Mustang at this point. Will everyone be able to get those quarter mile times? Well, will every Mustang be able to get the quarter mile times you guys brag about?

So let me ask you this, you keep trying to find fault or hypocrisy in my statements, why are you not doing the same for your Mustang friends? And why is it ok that only specific GTs can run great times in the hands of specific drivers and that's ok, but it isn't ok for the ZL1? I'd like your honest answer on that one.

I don't go to that section so I wouldn't know what they discuss over there. And your very statement clarifies that it is not an issue. It is doing exactly what it was programmed to do. An issue would be if it DIDN'T do what it was supposed to do. It is obvious that GM doesn't want their current top model Camaro causing damage. So they put these protection features in the car. Some people have reported that they had no issue launching the car. Others can't figure it out. That isn't the car's fault. And it is hardly an issue. You know this for a fact.

Statement 1 and 2 fair enough. Point taken.

Statement 3 on the Camaro ZL1 and the "bog" "launch control". I will disagree with you here. The ZL1 is not a track car, but rather a car that can be tracked. I think it is pretty clear from the 5th gen car, and so far the 6th car that it is meant to be well rounded in just about every performance metric. And per Chevy's website "The iconic ZL1 is purpose-built to challenge the most advanced sports coupes in the world. Rocketing from 0-to-60 in just 3.5 seconds, running a quarter mile in 11.4 seconds and pulling up to 1.02 g in g’s, ZL1 is designed to dominate in any setting."

And it does just that. It does everything well. Now yes the A10 does the 1/4 mile better and I would say that is because now in the automotive world with everything they can program in its easier/faster to have a computer do the shifting.

I am not trying to find fault or hypocrisy in your posts, if it comes off that way I apologize. Just trying to find your logic and see if it would apply to all makes and you confirmed it would by stating that if GM made a 6th Z like they did in 15 you'd criticize that too.

My honest answer is that I think I have been pretty clear that it has to be auto equipped mustangs to run good times. I don't think like the others I have criticized the ZL1 for it's performance metrics. Why do I not call them out, part of it is I only like arguing with you lol and the other part is sometimes there arguments to me are so far out there they don't warrant a response and you and others take care of them nicely lol.

Now back to the launch control, GM states the ZL1 should do the 1/4 in 11.8 for the 6M. (Per the all the facts post by Mr Wyndham going to go with that is from the press release) GM is usually pretty conservative on their estimates, so one would think that owners have hit that mark. Yet according to the Camaro6 fast list, only 1 M6 car has hit that mark and beat it. There are other experienced drag racers here, that can't get close to it because of the "bog". The car is protecting itself and I think some people have an issue with that. They can't launch it the way they think/know. Now I understand why GM did it, I don't blame them for wanting to protect themselves but from reading the complaints on it it does seem to not allow the car to perform to it's potential and that seems to have some owners mad.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by shaffe

Now back to the launch control, GM states the ZL1 should do the 1/4 in 11.8 for the 6M. (Per the all the facts post by Mr Wyndham going to go with that is from the press release) GM is usually pretty conservative on their estimates, so one would think that owners have hit that mark. Yet according to the Camaro6 fast list, only 1 M6 car has hit that mark and beat it. There are other experienced drag racers here, that can't get close to it because of the "bog". The car is protecting itself and I think some people have an issue with that. They can't launch it the way they think/know. Now I understand why GM did it, I don't blame them for wanting to protect themselves but from reading the complaints on it it does seem to not allow the car to perform to it's potential and that seems to have some owners mad.

But only one M6 owner has posted to the stock ZL1 fast list (11.6) All the others are A10. Might it be that those interested in drag racing bought the A10?

I wouldn't buy a M6 ZL1 anymore than I would a M6 Hellcat if drag racing was my objective. I owned a 13 ZL1 with M6. Trying to get the launch right was damn near impossible (for me). For this gen Al wrote...

The ZL1 Manual required significant practice of clutch pedal and throttle pedal application due to the tall first gear and the high grip tires. We experienced situations where the tires would light up with too much throttle and a slow clutch release, or grip too much with too quick of a clutch dump and not enough or too slow throttle, while we learned to maintain the right amount of stick/slip for best times. Also, shifting before 60 is worth about .2 seconds on the 0-60 time but does not impact ¼ mile. Don’t forget, the ZL1 will do 0-63 mph in first gear, to give you those 0.2 seconds back if you are just doing 0-60’s.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by hotlap

But only one M6 owner has posted to the stock ZL1 fast list (11.6) All the others are A10. Might it be that those interested in drag racing bought the A10?

I wouldn't buy a M6 ZL1 anymore than I would a M6 Hellcat if drag racing was my objective. I owned a 13 ZL1 with M6. Trying to get the launch right was damn near impossible (for me). For this gen Al wrote...

That is all true, but the car is meant to be as Chevy calls it a triple threat. There are plenty of people who know the auto will be faster, but will still buy the manual because they like to row their own gears. Hell most/all of them even acknowledge that the auto will be faster but would only own a car like this in a manual.

Maybe you are right, maybe all those interested in drag did buy the auto but there was enough people that were upset about it to make it an Ask Al question, maybe those people just don't care to post on "fast lists". I mean there is only what 18 cars on the list? I have to believe that there are more than 18 people on this forum with ZL1s who have gone to dragstrip.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by shaffe

That is all true, but the car is meant to be as you like to call it a triple threat. There are plenty of people who know the auto will be faster, but will still buy the manual because they like to row their own gears. Hell most/all of them even acknowledge that the auto will be faster but would only own a car like this in a manual.

Maybe you are right, maybe all those interested in drag did buy the auto but there was enough people that were upset about it to make it an Ask Al question, maybe those people just don't care to post on "fast lists". I mean there is only what 18 cars on the list? I have to believe that there are more than 18 people on this forum with ZL1s who have gone to dragstrip.

Understood. But, as it was for me with my 13 ZL1 M6, much practice is required to launch a manual with 580 - 650 HP on street tires. I was completely frustrated and bought a A8 SS and was immediately faster then the 13 ZL1. Next time I'll get a 1LE and just enjoy the car and not concern myself with ETs.

Bottom line: Automatic are where its at or you need to be damn good with a manual. Practice.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by hotlap

Understood. But, as it was for me with my 13 ZL1 M6, much practice is required to launch a manual with 580 - 650 HP on street tires. I was completely frustrated and bought a A8 SS and was immediately faster then the 13 ZL1. Next time I'll get a 1LE and just enjoy the car and not concern myself with ETs.

Bottom line: Automatic are where its at or you need to be damn good with a manual. Practice.

Yes Sir

and I honestly don't even remember how we got to talking about in this thread lol

[Mountain]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Ok. And has the PP2 been tested yet? No.

Do we know exactly what these GT350 updates are and how they will affect the car? No.

Do we know anything about the GT500 other than it will have over 700 HP? No.



Exactly. The M6 will still kick ass in a straight line even tho it's focus is the track. The A10 will still kick ass on the track even tho it an auto trans is better suited for the strip. Any configuration of the ZL1 will beat any Mustang available right now at anything. All well being just a few thousand dollars more expensive than the GTPP2, only slightly more expensive than the GT350, and way cheaper than the GT350R. Not one of these cars, all hovering in the same price range, can match the ZL1 with any trans.

Damn, dude, chill...

The GT PP2 just got out. You must know by now it takes time for ragazines to get a hold of cars, line up the test site, run the tests and the journalists to write something. I can understand your point if the car has been out near a year, but it’s been a couple months.

As for the 2019 GT350, expect a slight improved in current figures. The MRC cal, ABS cal and small aero tweaks will add more in driver confidence, which will better performance figures.

The GT500... WTF are you expecting Ford to spill and ruin their reveal?

I just don’t get your beef here.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by shaffe

Yes Sir

and I honestly don't even remember how we got to talking about in this thread lol

This right here (below). I slipped into the bog debate. My point was that with equal driver, the M6 ZL1 will wipe the floor with the GT350(R). Any venue, any day

Originally Posted by FastCarFanBoy

The manual ZL1 is a barely able to scratch out a win vs the GT350 let alone being on another level... private owners can’t get the car out of the 12’s which is comical for a 650hp car. Worlds slowest 650hp car? The A10 is the only thing giving the ZL1 any respect. Same way you say it saves the GT.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by hotlap

This right here (below). I slipped into the bog debate. My point was that with equal driver, the M6 ZL1 will wipe the floor with the GT350(R). Any venue, any day

And I would agree you

[newmoon]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

You're trying too hard dude. We all already know the Mustang is a joke. But keep on trying to troll. Based on the messages I've been getting, none of us are taking you seriously anyway. You sound you got your feelings hurt and the only thing left to do is try to piss people off. And the saddest thing is, for half the money, the SS 1LE is 1 tenth slower and can match the R on a track. So when Ford makes a $65K+ car that can beat a SS 1LE...or better yet, when Ford makes a $65K+ car that can beat their own GT, then we'll talk. Until then you're not saying much of anything.$65K plus markups for the slowest "Muscle Car" that can't beat any V8 Camaro at what it is built for. That says a lot. At least the slow M6 ZL1 can beat the R at everything!!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My feelings are not hurt and this conversation was about 1/4 mile times. You want to bash the GT350 for not running 11s but dismiss that much more powerful prior and present Gen manual ZL1s also had/have the same problem, as did the prior Z28. If you want to bash a vehicle at least apply the same standards in comparing it to similar equipped models.

The problem with all the above 1/4 mile times is the Manual! Blame it on bog, driver error, track prep, manufacturer, etc, etc, they all have the same issue. Does that make them a less fun car, I don't think so, because you actually drive the car instead of computer nannies driving it for you.