[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

No. Number 3 was talking about the Camaro / Firebird team’s product plan. I’m talking about the Product Plan. There’s a product plan, developed by the vehicle team detailing what they would execute and there’s a Product Plan, that is presented to top leadership by Product Portfolio Planning that has to be timing and resource balanced and meet all NHTSA and EPA regulations. It consolidates all the product plans proposed by all the vehicle teams, but balanced to a “best portfolio”.

The way things work in GM is the vehicle program teams pull together what they would like to do. Product Planning, where I spent the last 20 years of my GM career, is responsible for balancing all the proposals that come in from the vehicle teams against the resources available to execute them ($$$, vehicle plant capacities, powertrain plant capacities, timing required to execute) and further balances that with marketing forecasts of which vehicles are likely to sell in the segments they compete in and what Marketing and Finance agree to be the profitability of each proposal. Planning then circles back around and evaluates different scenarios.

I am very familiar with what Number 3 is talking about. The Camaro / Firebird team looked at concepts built off of the then new Sigma architecture. Thing is, between 1st Gen and 2nd Gen CTS, 1st Gen SRX, and 2nd Gen STS, Sigma capacity was almost fully subscribed and there were two other vehicle teams with proposals based off Sigma that, quite frankly, were better proposals and actually did make it into the Product Plan, though they never made it to production. There was also, as I said in my last post, more than a cursory look at doing Camaro off of Zeta. I just don’t remember, nor is it important, if that was something the vehicle team suggested or a counter-proposal from Planning when the Sigma idea didn’t float.

Sounds like a long detailed intricate process. I hope they were paying you in Corvettes...!!

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Sounds like a long detailed intricate process. I hope they were paying you in Corvettes...!!

That was the generalized Readers Digest version I had to “sanitize” it to not give away company secrets. It is a grind. Careers are made and broken on the ability to develop and execute a successful business case for important programs. I never had to develop a vehicle program business case. I was mainly on the powertrain side, so I got to interface across multiple vehicle teams, seeing as how they all needed powertrains.

[shaffe]

That's some really cool info Martin, thanks for sharing what you could!

So if you had to guess with your knowledge of the industry do you think the PP2 was really developed as "skunk works" project like they are saying or do you think that is just a story they want to go with it?

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by shaffe

That's some really cool info Martin, thanks for sharing what you could!

So if you had to guess with your knowledge of the industry do you think the PP2 was really developed as "skunk works" project like they are saying or do you think that is just a story they want to go with it?

I think it started that way and then became a sanctioned dark room operation. Experts sequestered to get the job done on a compressed timeframe. Probably not a lot different than Z/28. Most people in the company had no idea Z/28 was coming until Mark Reuss discussed it at an all-employee meeting. The cost and process involved in getting test mules created and run is high 6 digit / low 7 digit. "Skunk Works" churning that kind of money have a name....misappropriation of company assets.

[ShowNGo]

i thought this was a 2018 camaro vs 2018 mustang discussion. lol

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by shaffe

That's some really cool info Martin, thanks for sharing what you could!

So if you had to guess with your knowledge of the industry do you think the PP2 was really developed as "skunk works" project like they are saying or do you think that is just a story they want to go with it?

Probably the two best examples of "skunk works" that I can recall are the 1984 Pontiac Fiero and the 2007(?) Pontiac Solstice. The Fiero was developed and sold as a small city commuter car that just happened to have a mid-engine sports car design and just happened to get a V6 in its second year. The Solstice is probably the best example, though. One of the first things Bob Lutz did when he came on board was enlist a small group to develop the idea and then had a show car concept built, largely from "off the shelf" components. But then again, can a project directed by a vice-chairman REALLY be called skunk works? It was executed waaay out of process for an auto show concept vehicle. Then Bob pretty much muscled it through the Product Planning world and got the green light to build the vehicle.

That doesn't happen too often. Probably pretty similar to John DeLorean getting the GTO to production, but those were different times, when projects could be directed right from the executive offices.

Funny how all my examples are Pontiac.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by ShowNGo

i thought this was a 2018 camaro vs 2018 mustang discussion. lol

We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread.

[shaffe]

That is some interesting stuff Martin, thanks!

[Chadicus]

I think people might be expecting too much from the PP2. Seems like a PP1 with some different suspension tuning, small aero bits and gigantic tires. I'm skeptical it gained 2-3 seconds over the PP1.

[whiteboyblues2001]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

That was the generalized Readers Digest version I had to “sanitize” it to not give away company secrets. It is a grind. Careers are made and broken on the ability to develop and execute a successful business case for important programs. I never had to develop a vehicle program business case. I was mainly on the powertrain side, so I got to interface across multiple vehicle teams, seeing as how they all needed powertrains.

Wait, you retired not long ago and worked on the powertrain side of the process? That means you know about the new engines that are being developed right now? Like:

1. The base engine for the upcoming mid-engine 'vette (that would probably be the SS engine for the Gen7 Camaro).

2. The new DOHC V8's, both the twin turbo, and possibly the N/A version that Chevy is developing for the mid-engine 'vette.

I know you can't leak any company secrets on a Camaro website, but can we meet for some drinks???? I'm buying!!!

[whiteboyblues2001]

Originally Posted by Chadicus

I think people might be expecting too much from the PP2. Seems like a PP1 with some different suspension tuning, small aero bits and gigantic tires. I'm skeptical it gained 2-3 seconds over the PP1.

Lap times aside, tuning the rear suspension to not flop over in the transitions would make the car so much more fun to drive on a road course and/or on a windy back road.

But the bigger stickier tires ARE going to make a big difference. I think it's going to perform well.

[ShowNGo]

Originally Posted by Chadicus

I think people might be expecting too much from the PP2. Seems like a PP1 with some different suspension tuning, small aero bits and gigantic tires. I'm skeptical it gained 2-3 seconds over the PP1.

as someone else said, to be able to tune the suspension more handling oriented and not have to focus on comfort as much will help. Ford i think is big on making the car comfy for father time. plus we all now some wider stickier tires can make a big difference in track times.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by shaffe

That is some interesting stuff Martin, thanks!

very interesting contributions that provide understand of the process with a little history.


@Martinjlm - Thank you!

[Chadicus]

Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001

Lap times aside, tuning the rear suspension to not flop over in the transitions would make the car so much more fun to drive on a road course and/or on a windy back road.

But the bigger stickier tires ARE going to make a big difference. I think it's going to perform well.

I agree. I just think a 3 second gap is too large to overcome without stepping on the 350s toes which I don't think they will do.