[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by autocross

Both felt awesome, I’m just trying to figure out whether i’ll be hooning around or driving a serious sporty machine. The ‘smile test’ didn’t match up with my research

Were these cars either all equipped with manual transmission or were they all automatics?

Were either of the Mustangs equipped with the Performance Pack?


Norm

[DevilsReject97]

Originally Posted by Need4Camaro

I too am of the belief that a SS will always drive heavier than a 1LE V6. I do believe the 1LE V6 will outhandle an SS due to the weight advantage but I look at it this way... One offers a fun ride that you can toss and whip around and constantly asks for more, the other offers a absolute monster that will throw you back in the seats and still does a very nice job at maneuvering.

The SS has all the same toys that the 1LE V6 has...so unfortunately, no, the V6 wont outhandle it. However, it's not that big of a gap that one would expect. The 1LE V6 is a bad, bad, bad car...one not to be taken lightly..

Originally Posted by Need4Camaro

When I first got my 2SS, 17 - 19 MPG was the best I could do city / highway.

Currently 23 - 24 is the best I can do 80% highway 20% street and thats driving normal.

Not sure how these people are getting 27 - 32 MPG in an SS.

On a long road trip no street I think I can crack maybe 26.

I'm averaging about 20 overall in my ZL1...which is mostly street driving with some highway..

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by DevilsReject97

The SS has all the same toys that the 1LE V6 has...so unfortunately, no, the V6 wont outhandle it.

All the same toys . . . plus some extra front weight and %weight that aren't exactly advantages as far as pure handling is concerned.


Norm

[DevilsReject97]

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

All the same toys . . . plus some extra front weight and %weight that aren't exactly advantages as far as pure handling is concerned.


Norm

The SS has a slightly better skidpad and braking, not to mention more on demand torque/power. Are there instances where the V6 1LE can win? Absolutely....but on any track with any kind of decent straight...it will lose to an SS.

If your goal is to do pure autocross, of the parking lot variety, the 1LE would by far be the better choice. If you plan to actually track race it, the SS is the better choice all around.

[Norm Peterson]

I'm not convinced that winning at anything was on OP's mind. It may have become a matter of choosing between handling with a lighter touch and better straight line throttle response.


Norm

[autocross]

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

Were these cars either all equipped with manual transmission or were they all automatics?

Were either of the Mustangs equipped with the Performance Pack?


Norm

They were manual except the 2.0 Camaro (apparently less demand for manual in this configuration)
The mustangs GT had the performance package, and the ecoboost didn’t. I could certainly feel the performance package’s advantages, so I’d imagine the ecoboost would be pretty sweet with it.
I guess the best way to describe the ride would be more ‘lively’. If you push the mustangs limits you feel it, and that makes it feel a little more crazy. i found that very entertaining because that is the same feeling you get cornering quickly in an SUV. Basically like ‘holy crap!!!’. In the camaro it was more like ‘i wish i had a track because i’m goung dangerously fast’, and i could be doing it faster. You almost feel like you’re restraining yourself

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

I'm not convinced that winning at anything was on OP's mind. It may have become a matter of choosing between handling with a lighter touch and better straight line throttle response.


Norm

You got that right. As long as I’m not the slowest! I think it’s mainly about making my friends and I smile. The point of these cars is fun. Numbers are numbers. If you race around, times don’t matter. It’s all about what was the funnest.

[IMadeYouReadThis]

Originally Posted by DevilsReject97

The SS has a slightly better skidpad and braking, not to mention more on demand torque/power. Are there instances where the V6 1LE can win? Absolutely....but on any track with any kind of decent straight...it will lose to an SS.

If your goal is to do pure autocross, of the parking lot variety, the 1LE would by far be the better choice. If you plan to actually track race it, the SS is the better choice all around.

Even the base v6 and i4 out handles the front end heavy v8. Give credit where it's due man.

[DevilsReject97]

Originally Posted by IMadeYouReadThis

Even the base v6 and i4 out handles the front end heavy v8. Give credit where it's due man.

Oh really? Care to show me where it does?

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...ll-test-review

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...rm-test-review

Check out the data on these....and tell me where exactly the outhandled SS sits? The balance of the cars is off literally by 1% on the front end. The braking and the skidpad are almost identical new (the 1LE did have the advantage in braking by 3 ft).

And that's despite the SS weighing 200lbs more...

https://www.caranddriver.com/feature...ry-car-feature

The 1LE V6 finished this track in 3:04...better than a Mustang GT (2015) and better than a Mustang GT 500 (2011). The 5th gen 1LE SS finished the track in 3:01.5....and the current 1LE SS did it in 2:54.8.

The standard SS is better than the old 1LE (as it gets all that gear standard) and is going to be slower than the new 1LE SS.

So do tell...how does it outhandle it? It doesn't..


Is it an amazing car? Absolutely. Is it worth buying? Absolutely! Do you need a V8 to enjoy this car? Not at all! Can the 1LE V6 outhandle an SS or other cars? Sure it could, depending on the track/race. There's absolutely nothing wrong with a V6...and if you truly want to autocross a Camaro, the V6 is the better choice.

[whiteboyblues2001]

Originally Posted by IMadeYouReadThis

Even the base v6 and i4 out handles the front end heavy v8. Give credit where it's due man.

Um... no it doesn't. And it's not even close. Here are the links:

http://www.motortrend.com/news/2016-...t-test-review/
http://www.motortrend.com/cars/chevr...t-test-review/

Here are the numbers:

V6 RS(non-1LE):
BRAKING, 60-0 MPH 118 ft
LATERAL ACCELERATION 0.92 g (avg)
MT FIGURE EIGHT 25.5 sec @ 0.74 g (avg)

SS (non-1LE):
BRAKING, 60-0 MPH 104 ft
LATERAL ACCELERATION 1.00 g (avg)
MT FIGURE EIGHT 24.1 sec @ 0.85 g (avg)

As you can see, the SS will out handle the V6 RS in every measurable factor. It will significantly out brake, has more lateral grip, and can go through the figure eight almost a second and a half faster. That's a drubbing. The V6 may feel lighter, but it won't even come close to out handling the SS. Now, most of this is due to the summer tires on the SS and all-seasons on the V6. But even if you put summers on the V6, the SS will still handle better. It has stiffer sway bars, faster spring rates, ball-jointed rear toe links, rear cradle mount, Track Mode (which is not available on the non-1LE V6), and available Magnetic Ride Control.

Now the numbers don't tell the whole story. The non-1LE V6 is much lighter, and has an amazing chassis. The suspension set-up is not quite as aggressive, but it ain't no slouch either. If you like handling, these cars are a blast to drive in any form.

Now, if we are talking regular SS vs. V6 1LE, then things are more equal in terms of handling performance (because you get the SS tires, springs, ball-jointed rear toe links, rear cradle mounts, and sways, Track Mode, and PTM, but no MRC), and you will feel the lighter weight in the V6.

But the non-1LE V6 won't out handle a base SS. The numbers are just too far off to make that kind of claim.

[autocross]

I think something needs to be cleared up. I misunderstood handling, and i believe it has been a little misleading throughout this thread. Feel and performance are 2 very different aspects of a car, and that’s where I was mistaken.

Handling is very dependent on the driver, but generally can be gauged by the skidpad test. Now, it is very apparent that the heavier car has higher skidpad numbers than the lighter one. Why is this? Well, let’s look at racing for a moment.

Formula cars work very hard to create downforce. What is downforce? Using aerodynamics to simulate weight on a vehicle. On streets, you won’t be producing too much downforce, so this is where the grey area comes in.

Designer of the GTR claimed the car needed to be heavy in order to be safe. You might be wondering, why safe? He believed that you couldn’t simulate downforce effectively on public roads, so you use real weight instead. This will basically stick the car to the ground, and with a low center of gravity/stiff suspension create a more planted car.

So, why was i misled? FEEL... This is what the steering and car feels like to drive. The V8 felt solid as hell, but the lighter cars felt like they handled better because of the nimble/quickness they had. This was enjoyable, but not exactly the best for performance. You could achieve this with the heavier car, and you could possibly achieve a higher G force in the heavier car. Of course, with more mass you need to be careful about how you shift your energy, but this means more weight can create a more capeable product.

Does that mean heavy is good? Not in every scenario, but it’s more about the package as a whole.Powerful/fast cars need mass in order to tag ‘glued’ to the road. Sticky tires are good, but they need to be pushed onto the ground. Whether that weight is simulated or real, it isn’t that bad to be there

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by DevilsReject97

Is it an amazing car? Absolutely. Is it worth buying? Absolutely! Do you need a V8 to enjoy this car? Not at all! Can the 1LE V6 outhandle an SS or other cars? Sure it could, depending on the track/race. There's absolutely nothing wrong with a V6...and if you truly want to autocross a Camaro, the V6 is the better choice.

For a truly useful set of sixxer numbers for comparison, I think we need to wait for a V6 1LE data panel or two. If nothing else, to put the wheel and tire sizes on a level playing field rather than add those to the sixxer's obvious handicap.

It seems that OP has defined the subjective handling difference that I fully expected, where at least in reasonably sane street driving "handling" is more about composure and feel than absolute numbers.


Norm

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by autocross

The V8 felt solid as hell, but the lighter cars felt like they handled better because of the nimble/quickness they had. This was enjoyable, but not exactly the best for performance. You could achieve this with the heavier car, and you could possibly achieve a higher G force in the heavier car. Of course, with more mass you need to be careful about how you shift your energy, but this means more weight can create a more capeable product.

Does that mean heavy is good? Not in every scenario, but it’s more about the package as a whole.Powerful/fast cars need mass in order to tag ‘glued’ to the road. Sticky tires are good, but they need to be pushed onto the ground. Whether that weight is simulated or real, it isn’t that bad to be there

Weight - and there was a time when this was described as "road-hugging weight" - is always the enemy of absolute performance limits.

The basic reason for this (and the main reason why handling can even be "tuned" with springs/bars/shocks/struts) is that tire grip is less than proportional to the vertical load applied to it, and because the slip angles involved are larger for any given amount of lateral acceleration. IOW and with all else held constant, a 10% heavier car generates less than 10% more cornering grip (perhaps only 7% more), so your cornering acceleration has to drop (by about 3% if that 7% is somewhere near right).

A similar effect should be at play with respect to braking. Maybe just substitute slip% for slip angle.


Aero loading is different - it adds tire load but none of that less than proportional amount of tire grip is adding mass to be turned.


Norm

[autocross]

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

Weight - and there was a time when this was described as "road-hugging weight" - is always the enemy of absolute performance limits.

The basic reason for this (and the main reason why handling can even be "tuned" with springs/bars/shocks/struts) is that tire grip is less than proportional to the vertical load applied to it, and because the slip angles involved are larger for any given amount of lateral acceleration. IOW and with all else held constant, a 10% heavier car generates less than 10% more cornering grip (perhaps only 7% more), so your cornering acceleration has to drop (by about 3% if that 7% is somewhere near right).

A similar effect should be at play with respect to braking. Maybe just substitute slip% for slip angle.


Aero loading is different - it adds tire load but none of that less than proportional amount of tire grip is adding mass to be turned.


Norm

That makes sense, but doesn’t the weight help the car on public roads where you aren’t on a track?

[Norm Peterson]

Not really. Tire nonlinearity exists from the moment any load is transferred, whether laterally (in a corner) or longitudinally (acceleration, braking). Indirectly, an SS would get a little something out of having a slightly greater ratio of unsprung to sprung mass if the SS and the sixxer were riding on identical wheels/tires/brakes, but it's small and I suspect more of a ride quality matter.


Norm