[newmoon]

Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001

You never know, the PP2 may put up a better lap time that the 1LE (although I wouldn't count on it). Tires make a world of difference, and the Sport Cup 2's are pretty darn good and they will be 305 all the way around.

Also, even if other reviews don't mention the body roll, you can sure see it in the video. The rear seems to be the issue more than anything else from what I can see in the video (I would know more if I were to drive one of course, so there is some guesswork here). But the PP2 lists an increased stiffness of 62% of the rear sway bar (12% increase for the front). So, it seems as though this will hit the mark. I believe that this will also sort out the steering issue that Johnny was describing. Again, I haven't driven the car, so I am guessing here, but things look promising for the PP2.

My question is if the PP2 does beat the 1LE (IMO I don't think it will) will this forum claim that the PP2 had a tire advantage and that is the only reason it won? Its not like the 1LE doesn't have a huge tire advantage over the PP1 presently but we can't use that as an excuse.

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Instead of criticizing MT, criticize Ford.

They're both getting criticized.

Ford for being late with a decent competitor and sending in the JV team.

MT for putting on a test where the result was a foregone conclusion - they might as well have advised us that the sun was going to come up tomorrow.


Norm

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

They're both getting criticized.

Ford for being late with a decent competitor and sending in the JV team.

MT for putting on a test where the result was a foregone conclusion - they might as well have advised us that the sun was going to come up tomorrow.


Norm

Don’t downplay too strongly the PP1 with MagneRide the MT tested. The PP1 with MagneRide is a pretty nice equipment list to be riding like a floaty ass GT

The GT’s Level 1 Performance packageis included in the Level 2 bundle. That means larger Brembo front brakes with six-piston calipers, additional chassis and strut-tower braces, a larger radiator, a 3.73:1 rear axle ratio with a Torsen limited-slip differential, 19-inch wheels with Michelin Pilot Sport 4S performance tires (sized 255/40R-19 in front and 275/40R-19 in back), and more aggressive tuning for the suspension, chassis, brakes, stability-control system, and electrically-assisted power steering. Those systems are further refined for Level 2 to account for the bundle’s stiffer springs (20 percent firmer in front, 13 percent at the rear) and thicker anti-roll bars that are 12 percent stronger up front and a hulking 67 percent stiffer in back.
https://blog.caranddriver.com/level-...formance-pack/

[ST1LE]

Originally Posted by newmoon

My question is if the PP2 does beat the 1LE (IMO I don't think it will) will this forum claim that the PP2 had a tire advantage and that is the only reason it won? Its not like the 1LE doesn't have a huge tire advantage over the PP1 presently but we can't use that as an excuse.

You can't? Why not? Let the truth set you free hahaha!

The 1LE certainly has a tire advantage over the PP1, I think just about or slightly better than the tire advantage the PP2 has over the 1LE. The GY's on my 2013 were great and this gen is better, so who knows how much better the SC2's are? The thing about excuses though, they only exist when the truth alone is too much for one to handle.

I haven't seen anyone on here make excuses for the Camaro's performance, including tire advantage, but its a long thread and I could have missed it among all the sales talk.

I would love to see these obvious advantages taken away just to make it more apples to apples. I would really enjoy seeing a PP1 with PP2 rims/tires go against a PP2 in stock form. Awesome apples to apples to see what the PP2 improvements do sans tire advantage. To me this would be just as cool as the 1LE v PP2 H2H is going to be. I would like to see it because it would be an enjoyable experiment, while others seem to only want to brag about the outcome.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by ST1LE

You can't? Why not? Let the truth set you free hahaha!

The 1LE certainly has a tire advantage over the PP1, I think just about or slightly better than the tire advantage the PP2 has over the 1LE. The GY's on my 2013 were great and this gen is better, so who knows how much better the SC2's are? The thing about excuses though, they only exist when the truth alone is too much for one to handle.

I haven't seen anyone on here make excuses for the Camaro's performance, including tire advantage, but its a long thread and I could have missed it among all the sales talk.

I would love to see these obvious advantages taken away just to make it more apples to apples. I would really enjoy seeing a PP1 with PP2 rims/tires go against a PP2 in stock form. Awesome apples to apples to see what the PP2 improvements do sans tire advantage. To me this would be just as cool as the 1LE v PP2 H2H is going to be. I would like to see it because it would be an enjoyable experiment, while others seem to only want to brag about the outcome.

Agree for the same reason I'd like to see the underdog 1LE against the base GT350.

[ST1LE]

Originally Posted by hotlap

Agree for the same reason I'd like to see the underdog 1LE against the base GT350.

Yes!

[whiteboyblues2001]

Originally Posted by newmoon

My question is if the PP2 does beat the 1LE (IMO I don't think it will) will this forum claim that the PP2 had a tire advantage and that is the only reason it won? Its not like the 1LE doesn't have a huge tire advantage over the PP1 presently but we can't use that as an excuse.

Sure we can. There is no question that the tires had a big impact on the track times in this last H2H. You have to take everything into consideration to fully understand the performance differences. But if you read my comments here, I haven't really discussed much the lap times themselves, more about how the car performed.

I can see the excess body motions and hear the journalists complain about the "phone books on a water bed" and "the steering is a mess" (and I can very easily see what they are saying is true). Those concern me more than the lap times or what tires is came with, because I just want to have fun, not necessarily be the fastest. It is much easier to change tires to something you like better, than to sort out suspension issues. Especially since I want the Magnetic Ride Control. If you are going to swap out suspension parts to make the car more precise, you have to re-tune the MRC.

Ideally, I would love to see a head to head in completely stock form, then another one where the swap tires to have equal tire performance. The more data the better...

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by hotlap

Don’t downplay too strongly the PP1 with MagneRide the MT tested. The PP1 with MagneRide is a pretty nice equipment list to be riding like a floaty ass GT

I'm not - it's probably very nice for what it is (certainly better than base), and I'm sure that makes it plenty good for many buyers. Maybe most. But H2H isn't about buyer acceptance.

The PP1 seems to do well enough against other competitors, but topping the class at lap timing (H2H or otherwise) needs more than just a list of what technologies may be present. If the MR's tuning or anything else about the chassis tuning is too 'street' for track purposes, or - particularly in this case - when you give away half the store with your wheel and tire choices, those street-oriented decisions become self-imposed handicaps when the gloves come off for a comparison like this.


Norm

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by hotlap

Agree for the same reason I'd like to see the underdog 1LE against the base GT350.

Same here. If we get enough +1's to this and send it in to MT, do you think they'd run it?


Norm

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

Same here. If we get enough +1's to this and send it in to MT, do you think they'd run it?


Norm

[R.C. Collins]

Originally Posted by newmoon

My question is if the PP2 does beat the 1LE (IMO I don't think it will) will this forum claim that the PP2 had a tire advantage and that is the only reason it won? Its not like the 1LE doesn't have a huge tire advantage over the PP1 presently but we can't use that as an excuse.

What i'd like to see is back to back tests: First with OEM tires and wheels, then with identical tire compounds on both cars, that way we'd get a better idea if it's the rubber or the chassis/suspension setup that's the advantage.

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by newmoon

My question is if the PP2 does beat the 1LE (IMO I don't think it will) will this forum claim that the PP2 had a tire advantage and that is the only reason it won? Its not like the 1LE doesn't have a huge tire advantage over the PP1 presently but we can't use that as an excuse.

The tire choice is certainly responsible at least in part.

I've got two sets of summer performance tires, and brief datalogged test driving where the track day set (285/35-18's on 11's all around) was more composed at nearly a tenth of a lateral g higher than the street set (265/40-18's on 9.5's). Same springs, bars, alignment, and shock settings, same test loop, similar temperatures and weather conditions. Those wheel and tire sizes are pretty close to the wheel and tire sizes under discussion here in terms of section width and profile (and slightly less understeerish than the comparably-equipped-except-for-wheel-diameter H2H test car). Closer in some respects since the tires are the same model (MPSS) and the tread widths on those two sizes are claimed to be identical by the mfr (10.2").


Norm

[Mr. Wyndham]

Something like....this?

http://www.motortrend.com/cars/chevr...-make-the-car/

[FNxR3DNECK]

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

Same here. If we get enough +1's to this and send it in to MT, do you think they'd run it?


Norm

Jonny has said that a 1LE vs. GT350 H2H is almost certainly never going to happen, sorry guys. He stated the main reason being the "big price gap". I don't think that's so much of a MT problem as it is a Ford problem. A lot of people want to bash on MT for putting out the PP1 vs. 1LE H2H because it wasn't a fair fight but you have to remember that at the end of the day it comes down to what Ford will give them and what they will let them do with it. When he said it was due to a price gap that tells me Ford doesn't want their almost $60k GT350 getting beat by the $45k 1LE, I think it's that simple.

Edit: Jonny said this after myself and a few others sent him more than a few DMs asking for the 1LE vs. GT350 H2H.... FYI