[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001

I think the base GT should have the PP1 suspension but with all season tires. The PP1 should have the PP2 suspension, but with the Pilot Sport 4S tires, and the PP2 should have an even more aggressive suspension with the Sport Cup 2's and coolers.

That way, you could get the Base GT for daily drivers who just want a V8, the PP1 for folks who want grippy summer tires and a tied down ride, the the PP2 is for track rats with the most aggressive rubber and coolers for track duty.

That'd work for me . . . I honestly don't care what any car company chooses to call their cornering & handling packages as long as they've got one worth calling as such.


Norm

[SpeedIsLife]

Originally Posted by kttxz06

Yes. Anytime a forum is led by thePill, you know what kind of forum it is. They take everything he says as gold, yet he has no clue what he's talking about, nor has he ever stepped foot on a track. Yet, they suck him off and swallow every damn drip he feeds them. And they all sit around a circle begging for more.

You obviously haven't been over there if you think thePill is in their good graces.

He's been on a posting ban with them for well over a year.

[whiteboyblues2001]

Originally Posted by SSfriendly

And then you miss out on all of the baby boomers who feel the base suspension is too firm (and yes, there are quite a few).

Just add the Magnetic Ride Control (Magneride), and it won't be too firm. Problem solved...

[SSfriendly]

Originally Posted by Chadicus

I don't see too many baby boomers in GTs. Vettes and Shelbys yes but a base GT? I don't see that here where I live.

Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001

Just add the Magnetic Ride Control (Magneride), and it won't be too firm. Problem solved...

Indeed it would, but then that would blow the budget entry V8 or EB segment as well.

Don't get me wrong, I agree that making the base GT be firmer all around would be better for me...but in the end, Ford is trying to appeal to a broad range of customers. Firming up the suspension too much on the base GT would be a mistake and would lose buyers looking for a more comfortable ride at a reasonable price.

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by SSfriendly

And then you miss out on all of the baby boomers who feel the base suspension is too firm (and yes, there are quite a few).

I think what you'd find among the boomers is a clearer idea just what they want in their car's ride & handling balance. Sure, many of the people in my generation prefer a less firm ride because tracking isn't a focus for those folks, so PP1-ish suspension tuning with decent all-season tires sounds like a good fit. Maybe a little softer for the convertibles in deference to their structure being compromised when the tin top goes MIA. That group wouldn't be buying 1LE's or 5th gen Z/28's either.

FWIW, I'm entirely comfortable with wheel rates that are basically the same as those on the GT350R even for normal daily driving, and they aren't deal-breaker firm for my wife either. We were both born in the late 1940's, putting us close to the older end of the boomer generation.

Originally Posted by ST1LE

I struggle to follow when people say a car equipped with Sport Cup 2's isn't supposed to be a track car.

I think what blues2001 was getting at was for the PP2 to actually be an entry-level-ish track car. Kind of like a GT350R without the GT350's engine or pricing premium.


Norm

[whiteboyblues2001]

Originally Posted by ST1LE

I struggle to follow when people say a car equipped with Sport Cup 2's isn't supposed to be a track car.

Really? R-comp tires on a street car was Ford's plan? I think it more likely Ford once again failed to equip a track car with coolers, than they think a Mustang with R-Comp tires is a street car.

Was this post directed at me? You may have misread my post (or the intent of my post), as I agree with you. The PP2 seems to be a "track pack" if you will, given the tires and additional stiffness to the suspension. But it still doesn't have the coolers.

And since Ford has two PP's (I didn't mean it THAT way), one can be a street performance pack, and the other more of a track pack (with the base GT being for comfort). But the PP1's suspension is too floaty for a street performance pack (if you want comfort, get the base GT). So firm up the PP1's suspension, and add coolers to PP2, and that would make more sense to me.

[newmoon]

Originally Posted by ST1LE

The gap is more like $10,000 isn't it? I thought a fully equipped PP2 was just over $50K? Is it more than I thought? Fully equipped GT350 is over $61K.

$57,145 GT350 and it comes with everything you need to track, it will hold its value much better than a GT.

Honestly there is no way I would ever drop anywhere near 50k on a GT or SS regardless of what package they have. You are going to loose your shirt with depreciation almost instantly. Better to pony up a few more dollars and buy the GT350 or ZL1.

[whiteboyblues2001]

Originally Posted by SSfriendly

And then you miss out on all of the baby boomers who feel the base suspension is too firm (and yes, there are quite a few).

Wait, all the Mustang guys said the PP1 was so soft because of comfort (because it clearly wasn't set up for performance based off of what I saw in the H2H). So, you are now saying it is not comfortable too? So it under performs AND is too harsh? Wow, what a fail the PP1 is!

But if that is the case, yes, I agree with you. Make the base GT soft enough for the folks that don't want a harsh ride. Then make the PP1 for those who want a more tied down ride (a street performance pack) and don't mind a bit harsher ride to get it. Then make the PP2 a balls-to-the-wall track package. Planted suspension, grippy tires, and coolers for heavy-duty usage.

[ST1LE]

Originally Posted by newmoon

$57,145 GT350 and it comes with everything you need to track, it will hold its value much better than a GT.

Honestly there is no way I would ever drop anywhere near 50k on a GT or SS regardless of what package they have. You are going to loose your shirt with depreciation almost instantly. Better to pony up a few more dollars and buy the GT350 or ZL1.

Agreed 100%, base GT350 is all you need. Perfect in fact!

I am not in the know on the PP2 pricing since it isn't on the website yet, I thought it was around $47K in non premium form, just barely more than a 1SS 1LE. Anyway, just thought there was roughly a $10K difference.

It is great the '17 GT350 holds it value as it does. Sad seeing all these car prices fall to the floor after a year etc. Good for those in the market I guess HAHA.

[whiteboyblues2001]

Originally Posted by newmoon

$57,145 GT350 and it comes with everything you need to track, it will hold its value much better than a GT.

Honestly there is no way I would ever drop anywhere near 50k on a GT or SS regardless of what package they have. You are going to loose your shirt with depreciation almost instantly. Better to pony up a few more dollars and buy the GT350 or ZL1.

That's kind of the bind that Ford is in with these performance packs. If they add too much, it will get too close to the GT350 in both price and performance. You might as well get the GT350 at that point.

But, I got a 2016 1SS (non-1LE) that has all the necessary track coolers (I added MRC, Dual Mode Exhaust, 8-speed auto, and a few other goodies like a blade spoiler), for just a hair over $40k. And that was pretty close to MSRP. You could get this same car now for under $40k for sure (especially if you don't want an auto transmission). That's just about $20k cheaper than the GT350.

It's a perfect daily driver, that you can take to the track on weekends with no modifications (I only added DOT4 brake fluid so far). But, to get a trackable (road course of course) Mustang, you are getting awfully close to the GT350 in price.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by SSfriendly

It's because the PP2 exists that has a near identical DNA makeup compared to the 1LE. Firmer suspension, larger swaybars, WIDER tires with a better compound.

If Ford didn't have the PP2, the sure...that's all we would have to compare. But that's not the case.

As for the GT, even GM knows it doesn't match up with the SS....which is why they are talking about making one to compete with sales.

"Chevy product head Mark Reuss said yesterday that the automaker is considering a cheaper, stripped-out Camaro SS to better compete with the Mustang GT."

http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars...amaro-ss-base/

Chevy needs a cheaper camaro with all season tires so they can snag more year round sales. Anyone currently interested in a camaro in the frozen tundra will immediately have to buy a new set of wheels and tires just to be able to drive the car home.

The PP2 is a newly fangled thing tho. It has been GT to SS and then PP1 to SS 1LE all this time. Now all of a sudden the PP2 gets advertised and the PP1 is no longer a valid comparison to the 1LE because it got smoked? I don't see it that way. That's like saying the GT isn't the match for the SS because the GT got smoked. What happened was the PP1 got destroyed by the SS 1LE so Ford had to make a PP2 that would perform better. That does not make the PP1 any less of a natural competitor to the SS 1LE. It just means it got smoked and now you need something better.

Originally Posted by SSfriendly

And again, why do male camaro owners take pride in the fact that girls like mustangs? It's a bad thing that women lust over the mustang more than the camaro?

And that is the reason it underperforms...or performs well enough for women. They love Mustangs. And the Mustang is on a girly level of performance. Now if they liked Mustangs and the Mustang had a suspension like the Camaro and the performance capabilities of the Camaro then fine. But they are mainly posers who want a Mustang because they're in their "badass" phase which lasts like 2 years tops yet they don't want the harsh ride that comes with a stiff chassis made to perform because they want something that rides nice and comfy and they're scared by anything more than 300 something hp and the steering can't be too tight and they want it to be roomy and fuel efficient and have a lot of trunk space to store all the worthless shit they pile into their cars (get it?).

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by ST1LE

Agreed 100%, base GT350 is all you need. Perfect in fact!

I am not in the know on the PP2 pricing since it isn't on the website yet, I thought it was around $47K in non premium form, just barely more than a 1SS 1LE. Anyway, just thought there was roughly a $10K difference.

It is great the '17 GT350 holds it value as it does. Sad seeing all these car prices fall to the floor after a year etc. Good for those in the market I guess HAHA.

in non premium trim the GT PP2 is MSRP 44,495. (35,095 + 900 destination, 2000 for 301A pack and 6500 for PP2)

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

The PP2 is a newly fangled thing tho. It has been GT to SS and then PP1 to SS 1LE all this time. Now all of a sudden the PP2 gets advertised and the PP1 is no longer a valid comparison to the 1LE because it got smoked? I don't see it that way. That's like saying the GT isn't the match for the SS because the GT got smoked. What happened was the PP1 got destroyed by the SS 1LE so Ford had to make a PP2 that would perform better. That does not make the PP1 any less of a natural competitor to the SS 1LE. It just means it got smoked and now you need something better.


.

While it was the right comparison 1LE vs GT PP I don't think anyone ever considered the PP1 to be a legit competitor to the 1LE. All you had to do was look at the equipment and it was evident the 1LE components were much more performance focused than the GT PP. The PP1 now does up the game a bit, but it's components still are not as focused as the 1LE. Which is why once the PP2 was announced, IMO MT should have just waited.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by ST1LE

No, these things don't really matter at all. This is a performance discussion, or was intended to be anyway. It is you guys that always throw sales in though.

Why always so mad when all the details and facts are laid out like this? It doesn't feel so cool anymore bragging about sales when it's rental companies and girls buying the car, is that it?

Yes. Ford fans argue sales superiority and that performance doesn't matter. "Performance" doesn't matter to women and rental car companies so Mustang is heavy there. The $5,700+ higher average transaction price on Camaro retail sales suggests people are buying the more expensive performance variants from Chevy.

Funny acknowledgement

Originally Posted by SSfriendly

As for the GT, even GM knows it doesn't match up with the SS.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by SSfriendly

That's because Ford management didn't care about competing with the 1LE. They produced the PP1 knowing it wasn't going to match up. Hell, it took a prideful effort by engineers to create the PP2 in hopes of competing with the 1LE.

As for limp mode issues, keep in mind the PP2 has a different transmission than the GT350. It is quite possible that the Getrag transmission may not have the same cooling issues as the Tremec.

I don't disagree, coolers should have been standard...but if I were a betting man, this is entirely a bean counter issue. They were likely given a budget they weren't able to exceed.

That is a bullshit statement. If Ford didn't care about matching the 1LE, then there is nothing that any engineer would have or could have done to change the exec's minds. And I don't believe for one second that a bunch of engineers worked endless hours without pay to build the PP2. I thought that was a bullshit made-for-TV story the first time I heard it and I still call bullshit. Now if you have some sort of link to a story about how Ford management didn't care to match their biggest competitor when all they have done for the past few years was just that then I would love to see it. They designed the GT350(R) to take on the 5th Gen Z cars and even went to great lengths to developed a FPC engine and threw CF wheels on it. They went to great lengths to beat the ZR1's hp numbers with the 13-14 GT500. They built the Boss 302, CJ Mustang, and everything else. Yet you're sitting here telling me that they didn't care about the SS 1LE but they just happened to allow production of a design that their engineers drummed up staying overnight on their free time?

Originally Posted by shaffe

in non premium trim the GT PP2 is MSRP 44,495. (35,095 + 900 destination, 2000 for 301A pack and 6500 for PP2)



While it was the right comparison 1LE vs GT PP I don't think anyone ever considered the PP1 to be a legit competitor to the 1LE. All you had to do was look at the equipment and it was evident the 1LE components were much more performance focused than the GT PP. The PP1 now does up the game a bit, but it's components still are not as focused as the 1LE. Which is why once the PP2 was announced, IMO MT should have just waited.

It was the legit competitor. It just lost horribly. Nobody expected it to BEAT the SS 1LE. But that does not make it any less of a legit competitor. Equipment or not. The PP1 is the upgrade to the GT just like the SS 1LE is the upgrade to the SS. So they match. GM just decided to make the 1LE version more track worthy while Ford made the PP1 some kind of lame upgrade. Now Ford has a second upgrade, the PP2. So how is the matchup supposed to go now? GT to V6 Camaro and then PP1 to SS and then PP2 to SS 1LE? And what is the match to the Bullitt? All these "apples to apples" and talk about how this is not the competitor to that is a bunch of bullshit. The Mustangs have been underperforming and these are all just lame excuses.