[Quinten_33]

Originally Posted by Gunmetalmissle

“alignment and aero tweaks specified in the owners manual.” A lot of high performance cars have been coming with different alignment specs for the track and the street. You can have the dealer adjust this before taking delivery if you want max performance or longer tire life. I don’t think that qualifies as not stock. Does turning the dial to track mode make the car not stock since it sat on the showroom floor in sport mode?

Exactly. Porsche had an entire team of engineers on hand for Porsche 918 reviews and tests to ensure that the cars had ideal suspension and alignment setups for those tracks and conditions. ZO7 owners are told to go to dealers to get High temperature fluids put in their cars before going to track days. If someone installs the high octane ECU and skinny front wheels on their Demon to make a pass, is it considered stock?

[hotlap]

Oldie but a goodie. Left, the view from, say, a 90 Pontiac Transport mini van (ultimate greenhouse). Right, exaggerated view from the Camaro. Visibly in the Camaro is unconventional but you can still see the road.

I understand if one doesn’t like unconventional but driving isn’t a problem. The high belt line does make high curb parking garages interesting because it throws off your sense of where the front wheel is. I just turn later than usual to be sure and have never curbed its yet. 16,000 miles

[FastCarFanBoy]

Originally Posted by Gunmetalmissle

Does turning the dial to track mode make the car not stock since it sat on the showroom floor in sport mode?

no, only "Drag Mode"

[FastCarFanBoy]

Originally Posted by Godfatha

Maybe because every pimple faced 20 year old who makes $15 bucks an hour can afford a Mustang, probably trade their fart-canned ricers in for them.

that could be true, you would have to earn $16.50/hr to afford the Camaro... thats like upper middle class money.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by hotlap

Oldie but a goodie. Left, the view from, say, a 90 Pontiac Transport mini van (ultimate greenhouse). Right, exaggerated view from the Camaro. Visibly in the Camaro is unconventional but you can still see the road.

I understand if one doesn’t like unconventional but driving isn’t a problem. The high belt line does make high curb parking garages interesting because it throws off your sense of where the front wheel is. I just turn later than usual to be sure and have never curbed its yet. 16,000 miles

This is exactly my point. It is effective visibility...or what I call "effective visibility". Although you can't see as much, the amount you can see will allow you to operate a vehicle just as effectively as you could in a minivan. If not then the design would have been deemed hazardous and there is no way it would have been allowed on the road. And if it was allowed on the road in such a hazardous condition, then Camaro guys would be the ones running into crowds instead of Mustangs. The visibility argument is a loser's argument. In 5 years of owning my 5th Gen SS I had one issue where visibility was compromised. And even then I simply slowly backed up and used reflections and shadows and my ears (listening for vehicles) to guide me. And nothing came of it. In almost 1 year of having my ZL1 I have had no issues regarding visibility at all.

[SDG23]

Who cares if the Mustang outsells the Camaro and what does that have anything to do with how good or bad a car is?? Mustangs are cheap, that's why people buy them. When I'm driving down the road and pass two dozen v6 automatic convertible Mustangs (half of them with huge dents in them) on my way home, I don't see a special car, I see a cheap cookie cutter piece of mediocrity. I really enjoy my 6th Gen and the fact that I don't see very many of them makes it cooler, I think.

[Chadicus]

Originally Posted by SDG23

Who cares if the Mustang outsells the Camaro and what does that have anything to do with how good or bad a car is?? Mustangs are cheap, that's why people buy them. When I'm driving down the road and pass two dozen v6 automatic convertible Mustangs (half of them with huge dents in them) on my way home, I don't see a special car, I see a cheap cookie cutter piece of mediocrity. I really enjoy my 6th Gen and the fact that I don't see very many of them makes it cooler, I think.

Mustang guys care. Because since Sept 2015 sales are the only measurable metric the Mustang has a leg up in.

[oldman]

drowning men grasp at straw...

I had 2 Challengers before this, visibility was good, comfort was good too, seating: easy to get in and out, quite to boot. Perfect secretary car.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by Chadicus

Mustang guys care. Because since Sept 2015 sales are the only measurable metric the Mustang has a leg up in.

And because they think it spells certain doom for the Camaro. Which is an idiotic way to think. The Chally has had poor sales all these years and they still manage. But it helps the Mustang boys to sleep at night if they can dream of the Camaro going out of production again.

Also because they think that bringing it up bothers us. It is a failed troll attempt. I don't care if the Mustang outsells the Camaro. I bought my ZL1 with full knowledge of sales. And that data had no impact on my decision. That and visibility are all they can brag about.

Anyone else notice that fastcarfanboy is the only troll left? What happened to SSFriendly? He hasn't been here anywhere near as frequently after the first H2H.

[aa406079]

Originally Posted by 13vertss/r's

None of those numbers are great, but what the Ford has over the Camaro in winter months is all season tires over summer only tires. The Camaro is more of sports car nice weather car, while the Mustang is more set up for all year driving. Hopefully GM will change this for 2019

LETS BE HONEST.

MOST PEOPLE, WHEN IT COMES TO THEIR VEHICLE PURCHASE.... ARE POSEURS.



Most people buy their car and never mod it, never go on their respective forums, nor are interested in becoming better drivers to wring out all the performance of their cars.


Most people try to buy a sporty car to make themselves look " sporty/ virile/ powerful" ect.... lots of car companies base their marketing and sell cars by this.


Its the same BS when folks buy an SUV because of all those "scary winter" beating ad's and then drive them in the mountains with all season tires and end up in the ditch...


The mustang was long been the cheapest "sporty" car you can buy with a V8... alot of people just want that and nothing else....

IN addition, the mustang has always been more ... user friendly... softer... ( Ford will often make up for this with limited higher end models... which are expensive)

The camaro has always been the ... edgier of the two ... more limited audience...

Serious performance car junkies are a niche market... always was, always will be.

I just thank god Al Oppenhieser is also one of us and makes a car that we truly appreciate... the SS 1LE is simply briliiant, and most people that buy cars will never truly grasp or appreciate....

[Mikey LikesIt]

Originally Posted by Chadicus

You're right. You totally convinced me. The Mustang is such a better car. I'll head down to Hertz Auto Sales right now today and get a 17 GT PP for 24k. Thanks for helping me see the light.

LOL. Silly Ford boys with their sales numbers argument. More sales means a superior car lol.

I’d hate to argue that my car preference is superior due to sales numbers. Especially when most of the competitor’s sales are to non-V8women “ and not to rental fleets.

Looks like the PP1 is a waste of time.

[torqueaddict]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

My argument is that the Camaro has less visibility, but none of that visibility has an actual impact on driving the vehicle. It simply seems like you can't see out of it. I can drive my ZL1 at any time of the day or night in heavy traffic and zigzag in and out of lanes without a worry at all. And it is because I can see everything that I need to see to operate the vehicle safely. Just because it has less visibility doesn't mean it doesn't have enough visibility.

Very well said, and I wholeheartedly agree. I'm glad I didn't let the BS get in the way of me actually test driving this car.

[aa406079]

Originally Posted by newmoon

Yes typical . But what I want to know is with all the performance the Camaro offers throughout the entire lineup why can't it do better in sales. Is it the appearance, visibility issues, lack of loyal fanbase? Something holds this 6th Gen back as it has struggled since its introduction.

Yes something holds back sales... its the fact that the Camaro is a less compromising sports car... it performs better in practically every metric... but MOST people out there arent true performance gearheads... they just want a bit of flavour without many rough edges... so they'll take the cheaper, shittier handling car with more room /practicality and visibility....

In the end , most people claim they want a sports car... but really they want a sporty car that looks like a legit sports car... Hell... most kids these days cant even drive stick...


Why do you think BMW has been making such shitty "performance" cars of late? Even this ill-sorted mustang matched the current M4 laptime and Figure-8

They figured it out... most of their customers want to LOOK sporty... but the drivers themselve cant drive worth shit... How would a shitty driver with no motivation to improve even realize his car handles like shit when he hits the brakes mid corner?

One of my favourite scene in the Bourne Movies is when he does the high speed car chases in SHITTY cars... proving the driver is the most important part of the handling equation.



Back to why the Mustang WILL ALWAYS outsell the Camaro...( god willing)

People see a base mustange a sporty looking car not much more money than an econobox... girls buy them in drove in convertible form becuase theyre cute and they want a droptop....

V8 crowd.... The majority buy a V8 to rev once a while for their friends and dates... maybe goose it a few times from stop light to stop light... but they dont ever intend to carve up canyons and take some autocross events to improve their driving and really enjoy exploring the limits of a great handling car....SO THEY DONT NEED NOR WANT a great handling car....

Im willing to give up rear seat room... less than ideal parking lot vis, and a small trunk opening for a car thats based on the Alpha platform because I WILL ENJOY taking a set of canyon roads on a regular basis...

I will endure bunker like windows because once you get above 30 mph and out of the alleys and parking lots... you dont need the extra peripheral
visibility... the car gets smaller on the road quick.


I TRULY hope the Camaro NEVER outsells the Mustang... for if it does....it will mean the car is so compromised for the casual driving public that it no longer worth owning for those that enjoy performance above ALL other metrics of car measurement and purchase consideration...

[Bluecyclone]

I am not a fan/troll here and do build my ponies. I enjoy coastal hwys in my base GT well modded for R/T agility and looks. Cosmetics come last for me because the base model isn't up to my capabilities as a driver. To Heck with Sales, let's roll!