[shaffe]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

The ZR1 was not 100% showroom stock as it had a seatbelt harness and a harness bar on it. From what I could tell those were for safety and had no impact on performance. But maybe it could be argued that without those seat items the driver would have been bouncing around and not have been able to get such a phenomenal result. It is a stretch but I'll admit that someone could make that argument. If you wanna make it then fine by me. But that just means GM would have to redesign a better seat...or not.

Just giving you a hardtime mostly because of all the banter if stuff was legit 100% of the showroom floor or not. All good bud

[1295/SS]

Originally Posted by newmoon

What I don't understand is if the 6th Gen Camaro is such an engineering success, has all the performance standards, is such a performance bargain, wins the publication shootouts, but yet still doesn't sell. People don't want it.

January Sales:

Mustang 4732
Camaro 2867
Challenger 3405

Congrats on your sales victory.

[BlaqWhole]

Also remember one thing, Ford dealerships throw GTs and EBs at their customers for dirt cheap. Cheaper than any Muscle car should be if you ask me. They do it because the Mustang is a very cheap car. That much is obvious by it's lacking performance and that you have to go across like every trim level to get one decent ride. As long as Ford can continue to throw them away for cheap then they will have more sales. I suspect that with the price hike they will not be able to justify selling base model GTs for high $20Ks anymore. Maybe the EBs will still be cheap. And maybe the guys who would have been able to penny pinch to get themselves in a GT will now have to settle for the EB. Maybe now that the price is equal the guys who want a car that performs better will head on over to the Chevy dealership. I don't know. We'll see how all that works out.

[1295/SS]

Originally Posted by newmoon

Thank you for all the responses. I just wanted to make sure all of the typical poor sales responses were still in place.

Kind of like the poor performance excuses.

[AJL13]

Good lord, you mustang guys are sure nailing down deflection/whataboutism to an art form:

"The 2018 Mustang is the fastest, the very fastest, the bestest...believe me"
*loses first H2H comparison from a major publication vs. Camaro*
"IT WASN'T THE RIGHT TRIM! UNFAIR TEST! I WANT A REMATCH!"
*loses another H2H comparison with a comparably equipped Camaro*
"........THE CAMARO DOESN'T SELL LOLZ CYA!"

[Bongos2U]

Originally Posted by Chadicus

How many of Mustangs sales are to Hertz?

Don't know the exact number, but the Mustang increased retail sales by 10% last month.

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

The ZR1 was not 100% showroom stock as it had a seatbelt harness and a harness bar on it. From what I could tell those were for safety and had no impact on performance.

Though it did have alignment and most likely other setup tweaks from the supplement that technically aren't 100% showroom stock but which would impact performance.


Norm

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by Bongos2U

Don't know the exact number, but the Mustang increased retail sales by 10% last month.

This whole business of sales is nothing but a strawman when most of them wouldn't have been spec'ed the same way you would have.


Norm

[FastCarFanBoy]

Originally Posted by FastCarFanBoy

there is an excuse, it’s just not one you like to hear and that is that people care less about fractions of a second around a road course or .1 on a drag strip then they do about things like visibility and storage space. Performance can be improved if needed but unless you are going to install a Google Earth mapping camera on the Camaro your stuck with horrible sight lines. And no matter how many times Jonny talks up how the Camaro is the best driving car on Earth the sales will continue to reflect it.

I found a possible answer for the poor sales.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by FastCarFanBoy

I found a possible answer for the poor sales.

Nah. Fleet sales are what separate the three. More individual buyers choose Camaro because they do care about performance.

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by FastCarFanBoy

... on the Camaro your stuck with horrible sight lines.

Have you driven one to see if the Camaro's sight lines really are a deal-breaker for you as an individual?

I know that's a common complaint, but it's certainly not a universal problem. I didn't have any trouble, and that was going into it with some suspicion that I might.


Norm

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by FastCarFanBoy

Performance can be improved if needed but unless you are going to install a Google Earth mapping camera on the Camaro your stuck with horrible sight lines.

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

Have you driven one to see if the Camaro's sight lines really are a deal-breaker for you as an individual?

I know that's a common complaint, but it's certainly not a universal problem. I didn't have any trouble, and that was going into it with some suspicion that I might.


Norm

Very fair assessment Norm.

There is no doubt that some people are scared off of the Camaro because of all they have heard about the sight lines, gun slits, turret, etc. No doubt. And I'm sure a lot of potential buyers have moved on because of the rear seat accommodation (Challenger) and/or trunk access (Mustang & Challenger)

I have driven more than my share of Mustangs and Challengers in my role at GM (and Porsches, and BMWs, and Jaguars, etc)and will certainly concede that Mustang and Challenger have a much better view from the cockpit. A lot more greenhouse. But from my perspective, I can see better from my Camaro (top up) than most Corvettes I have driven over the years and I have NO PROBLEM with visibility from Corvettes or Camaros. Mustangs are better, but Camaros are not bad. Side Blind Zone Alert also helps, and visibility is awesome with the top down.

The only thing that could have made me reconsider my purchase is the fact that I am a musician and there is some gear that I cannot fit in the trunk of my Camaro. The trunk is big enough to house it, but the shape of the opening won't let me get it in. If I had decided to buy a coupe, I could have let the seats down and put it in from the cabin. But, for me, convertible was choice 1, performance (therefore, V8) was choice 2, so I put my gear in the back seat or I take a different car.

Even if I did not have a long history with GM, I would have chosen the SS convertible over the Mustang GT convertible simply based on performance, styling, and feature options (HUD, Magna-Ride, power top that operates up or down up to 30 mph and has hard tonneau). And even though I have a long history with GM, I have owned 4 Mustangs, including two 1979 Pace Cars at the same time. I don't hate Mustangs. I just think Camaro is the better car.

[FastCarFanBoy]

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

Have you driven one to see if the Camaro's sight lines really are a deal-breaker for you as an individual?

I know that's a common complaint, but it's certainly not a universal problem. I didn't have any trouble, and that was going into it with some suspicion that I might.


Norm

My Wife's friend has a v6 and I have driven it on a couple short tips. I'm 6.5 and I fit in the car comfortably, but there is no doubt visibility is an issue. I also imagine being tall allows me to see better out of the car than people on the short end of the spectrum. Would it be a deal breaker for me? absolutely not , but I grew up driving cars that I had removed the a/c from, that I had removed the power steering belt from, put a 5 inch cowl hood on. I will put up with alot more than your average buyer in the name of performance or the look of it.

[Gunmetalmissle]

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

Though it did have alignment and most likely other setup tweaks from the supplement that technically aren't 100% showroom stock but which would impact performance.


Norm

“alignment and aero tweaks specified in the owners manual.” A lot of high performance cars have been coming with different alignment specs for the track and the street. You can have the dealer adjust this before taking delivery if you want max performance or longer tire life. I don’t think that qualifies as not stock. Does turning the dial to track mode make the car not stock since it sat on the showroom floor in sport mode?