[SpeedIsLife]

Originally Posted by 2Bowties

Lol

https://youtu.be/wBnD2hDbSOQ

I wasn't aware Michael J Fox was filming drag racing vid's now.

[BlaqWhole]

The problem with markups isn't Ford's to deal with. And I don't place blame on the dealerships. The fault solely belongs to the idiots who pay it. Mark up a vehicle on me and no matter how much I want it I will walk out the dealership and never look back unless they come running out to tell me it was just a prank or something. If people want to pay it then I say let them.

One thing Ford could do is push the MSRP up to the point that any markup will make it well beyond what people are willing to pay. If they had put the MSRP of the Shelby at $85K then the dealerships would not have gotten away. But then you lose the targeted customer...even tho that customer is lost anyway because of the markups. And of course there are other considerations like options and performance which should all be on the level of the MSRP. If people are willing to pay $90K for a stripped down Mustang that can barely beat a SS 1LE and gets destroyed by a $63K ZL1 then adjust the MSRP accordingly and let them pay. Maybe all the extra money will give them more room to make the GT better than it is. Maybe eventually the Mustang will become a better overall car all because people are paying $15K-$25K more for the top level Mustangs than they should which will allow them to give the GT and EB $15K-$25K more worth of goodies and performance. It's dumb as hell but hey, if people wanna pay that kind of money then let Ford collect it and put it back into their lower tier cars.

[SpeedIsLife]

In my area (and the whole of the PNW in general) back in 2009/2010 when the Camaro returned..every model had a ADM..SS, V6..leather, cloth..didn't matter. When people confronted them on it, they basically told them to piss off.

Well..Challenger and Mustang sales spiked in the region..they couldn't keep a SRT8 or a GT on the lot for more than 2-3 days. After a few months of that a few of the local Chevy dealers dropped ADM's.. and suddenly the sales took off.

The moral is don't pay ADM's, you're part of the problem if you do, like Blaq said.

[kttxz06]

Originally Posted by newmoon

So is the ZL1-1LE a fail if the 500 smokes it in: 0-60, 1/8, 1/4, 1-mile, top end, street, roll, ride quality, comfort, etc, etc? You know all the stuff that is important in a street car, which is what you are purchasing. Or should Ford give all that up to make sure the 500 can run a Ring Lap?

Also is the present manual ZL1 or ZL1-1LE a failure because it can't match the straight line performance of the 13/14 GT-500?

The Zl1 1LE isn't a street car. It's a track car.

I expect the 500 to hand the Zl1 it's ass. If it doesn't, Ford has failed again. If the 500 barely eeks out the Zl1, it's still a failure. Ford has had what? 3-4 years to build something to smash the Zl1's brains in. If it doesn't, they failed. End of story.

And I can go out on a limb now and say the 500 won't sniff the bumper of the Zl1 1LE on a track. We can go ahead and get that argument out of the way. I'm talking about a road course track. You know, a track that proves the overall of a car. Not just straight line. The 500 should smack down the 1LE on a drag strip. Why? A10 vs Manual.

To me, the 500 lines up with the Zl1. And it better smash it or they failed. Big time.

[newmoon]

Originally Posted by kttxz06

The Zl1 1LE isn't a street car. It's a track car.

I expect the 500 to hand the Zl1 it's ass. If it doesn't, Ford has failed again. If the 500 barely eeks out the Zl1, it's still a failure. Ford has had what? 3-4 years to build something to smash the Zl1's brains in. If it doesn't, they failed. End of story.

And I can go out on a limb now and say the 500 won't sniff the bumper of the Zl1 1LE on a track. We can go ahead and get that argument out of the way. I'm talking about a road course track. You know, a track that proves the overall of a car. Not just straight line. The 500 should smack down the 1LE on a drag strip. Why? A10 vs Manual.

To me, the 500 lines up with the Zl1. And it better smash it or they failed. Big time.

You are talking about a racing venue that 99% of these cars will never see-track. But yet you quickly dismiss the venues in which 100% of these cars will play in street, and the much more popular strip. Makes sense

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by SSfriendly

Haha, man you sound like your ass is chapped...and totally naive. You really are delusional.

Ford produces a base GT with narrow all season tires NOT to compete with the SS, but because they are cheaper and they know a large percentage of buyers do not want more expensive, summer only tires as these are daily drivers across all parts of the country. Ford knows the SS has a tire advantage, and they don't care...and for some reason that eats you up.

Likewise, they produce the PP1 not to compete with the 1LE, but to give buyers something that is a little more track ready, with summer tires and a few more track oriented goodies without making an all out track performer. Once again, Ford already knew how the 1LE performed...and if they wanted to produce a car that competed with it, they would have. And again, for whatever reason this eats you up.

Lastly, the PP2 is produced with a completed upgraded and tuned suspension with track ready tires. This is absolutely Fords attempt to match the 1LE. This is blatantly obvious...how anyone here or in any other forum can argue otherwise is delusional. Once again, it is claimed the PP2 is a good 3.5 seconds faster than the PP1 around Grattan raceway. This should make it very close in performance to the 1LE.

Will it beat it, I really don't care...as I will never own either. But for anyone to argue that the PP1 was made to compete with the 1LE is out of their mind.

All you had to do was look at the equipment in the PP1 to see it was never a serious threat to the 1LE

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

The GT is the base model V8 Mustang. And it loses to the base model V8 Camaro. Now I don't care what trim you think is the appropriate match. It loses. The base GT loses to the base SS in everything. The GT PP loses to the base SS. The GT PP loses to the SS 1LE. The GTPP loses to the 2SS. When you compare base to base and go up a trim level the GT loses. When you compare the price and match them accordingly the GT loses. Driver's race in a straight line like it was from 11-14. But the GT is still slower. Meaning that a good driver in a GT can beat a driver of less skill in a SS. But equal drivers and the SS will win. On a track the SS wins. In every performance category the GT has lost. And unless the GT PP2 is a homerun, it will lose to. So no matter how you slice it the GT loses. No matter how close it comes it still loses. AT every comparable category with every comparable consideration it loses. It was not built for comfort. It was not built to NOT match the Camaro. Everything Ford has done has been to keep up with the Camaro and they are barely hanging in there. They directly targeted the SS and the SS 1LE. They took their overnight off the clock team's ideas and put them into motion because they are trying to beat the Camaro. They upped the price because the upgrades done to it to keep up with the Camaro meant higher costs. They marketed it to the performance industry because they are showcasing it's capabilities in direct competition to the Camaro. This isn't some game that you're trying to make it out to be. If it was then you wouldn't be here at all. Ford is trying to match the Camaro. They can't because the Camaro is that good.

Yes Ford is clearly trying to close the gap. There is no denying that but the only place I think you are off in this post is sending it to the performance shops to market it. All of these performance shops buy cars as fast as possible as soon as they are available, make a few stock runs so they can then say how much better their tune/package is than ABC competitor. If anything that proposed strategy is ass backwards

Originally Posted by crysalis_01

It's not that FoMoCo doesn't care, its that they only care, just enough. Just enough to make profits. They, like most businesses are all about the bottom line.

I bolded a comment that sticks out coming from someone like you. Normally I can see your point if view and do agree often, but this "excuse" seems eerily similar to one you've made on multiple occasion in reference to your somewhat lackluster 1/4 mile times. By all means make the argument, but realize it goes both ways.

These companies make these cars to get us, the consumer, to open our wallets. How they do that is up to them. Make the most profitable vehicle in a segment via an arbitrarily chosen set of metrics, then put it to market. If the buyers bite, good, sell them more, if they want something a little different, tweek the formula, if they don't buy its all, scrap it.

They aren't out to fullfil our set of goals, to have the best handling, to be the fastest, to have the most power. They're out to fullfil their goal, make profit. Sometimes everything lines up and we get a vehicle that meets their goals AND checks many of the boxes we want, sometimes not. Do these companies care? To a point... but its their point, not ours.

GM produces great performers, that sell. Corvette is an icon. Camaro is everybit world class. Cadillac's V-series vehicles bring an awesome level of excitement to luxury.

Ford is selling niche performance left and right, FiST, FoST, FoRS, EdgeST, F-150 RAPTOR.

Mustang sells on a great deal of history AND its performance offerings. Is it the best in class? No. Does it need to be to make Ford money? No. So I wish they would aim to be the best performer in class? Sure, but I also realize that just because it isn't the best in some metrics, that doesn't automatically relegate it to last.

Besides I for one only ever worry about the performance of one vehicle, whatever one is mine at the time. I dont race magazines, I don't race fast lists, I race my car... and it performs at a level I choose.

Yep. From the past it is very clear that at the GT level Ford does just enough. They do just enough for the car to be relevant/competitive in its class and as long as it sells that all that matters. All though now with PP2 it does seem like they are going to take a swing at the 1LE and do more than they have too.

Originally Posted by Gen6_1Le

At least Chevy cares enough to build cars like ZL1 1le , if the GT500 can't beat the Zl1 1Le its a fail . And i would bet it won't . Ford just don't care enough.

That depends. If the ZLE is the target and it doesn't beat it I agree. I have a feeling that the GT500 is going slot somewhere between the ZL1 and ZLE. It will be faster than the ZL1 but not faster than the ZLE. that is just my opinion and guess

Originally Posted by kttxz06

Agreed. Ford has the capabilities to make the Mustang run with the Camaro performance wise and quality wise, but they always fall short when comparing model years. I have no idea why. That's the reason I've never owned a Mustang.

I'm going to seriously take a look at the GT500, but if that car has crap interior, no A10, and no fat arse rear tire, I'm passing. Oh yea, and a price below $100k without dealer mark up. You know these are going to sell for at least $125k when they come out with mark up included. A few hundred idiots will pay to be first in line. Ford wins.

Getting real sick of the ADM talk lol. that is 100% on the dealers and the idiots that continue to pay it.

Originally Posted by Mr. Wyndham

Correction: Ford dealers win....in fact, it hurts Ford for the same reasons you just stated you wouldn't buy one if it was marked up.

If I remember right, last year, there was a little blip on the radar about Ford trying to do something within their legal rights to compel the dealers to stop marking up the GT350s. I don't know if they succeeded.

What he said. It is the dealer that wins, not Ford.

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

I would agree with you if, and only if, these statements had been made BEFORE the H2H. The fact is that all these guys put all their eggs in the GT and GT PP1 basket hoping it would defeat the SS and SS 1LE. After it lost was when we started hearing about how it wasn't apples to apples or how Ford isn't trying. That makes it an excuse. And it is a loser's excuse. SSF sat here downplaying the SS and even the ZL1 for weeks. And that was only because he honestly thought it would do a low 12 in the quarter and actually be faster than the Shelby. He even went as far as to say that Ford didn't care about pissing off Shelby owners and they would make the GT faster. Those aren't statements you make about a company that doesn't care about beating the competition. This is all just his way of saving face. Now if the GT and GT PP1 had won, he would be singing a different tune. But they didn't, lol!!

I think there was a time when Ford didn't really care about performance. That was back in the 90s and early 2000s and it carried up until the Coyote. Since 2011 Ford has been banging it out with the Camaro. They even went as far as developing the FPC and throwing CF wheels on the GT350R to beat the then current 5th Gen Z28 and 5th Gen ZL1. But they were battling an outgoing model and got stuck with the GT350(R). Chevy took two leaps ahead and now Ford (and the GT) is stuck behind the performance of the GT350(R). They ARE trying to keep up. All the updates and increases shows that they are. But until the GT350 is gone they will be stuck lagging behind.

Dude I really don't think anyone thought the PP1 would beat or hang with the 1LE. If they did they are delusional LOL.

But yes Ford is clearly playing catch up, they have been responding to just about everything Camaro does. Now you might say this sounds like defending Ford, but to me it does seem Ford clearly has their strategy of Mustang GT performance and they are sticking to it.

GT
GT PP

and now the PP2.

I personally think that is a great strategy. Give the customers choices but at the same time also get what you and hotlap say. GM gives you all the performance all the time. Different methods for the same goal selling cars. Me as long as the car can be fun on a twisty road or on ramp that is good enough for me because any performance driving I do is the 1/4. So for a buyer like me, that's awesome that I could get a base GT.

Now back to the PP2, this to me seems like the first time Ford is really going after the 1LE. All you have to do is look at the equipment and see Ford was never really going after the 1LE previously they seemed content to just let the 1LE have its niche. It will be interesting to see how it fairs, I still feel the 1LE will be faster but the GTPP2 should be competitive at least.

Originally Posted by SuperSound

And the GT350 will be gone by the time the GT500 comes up, so Ford will be right back to the same lineup. How does the Bullitt match up to the GT A10 PP? Oh yea, it will be slower despite more power thanks to it being M6 only. Roush, Steeda, Saleen, and Shelby (guess you mean the real one). Yea ever heard of Fireball, Yenko, Berger, etc.. Overpriced dealer backed cars are nothing new and often poor performing (looking at your Shelby Super Snake).

What does Ford have to go against the LT 1LE? B/c last I checked, the EB PP got its ass handed to it by an LT with just summer tires. How bout the ZL1 vert? Or just a V6 Camaro?

LOL Shelby American cars have underperformed for quite some time. They are a total joke.

Was that the same test where the Mustang initially won, but then MT threw aftermarket tires on the Camaro?

Originally Posted by ST1LE

All they can do is produce enough to meet demand. Its simple economics, more demand than supply and price goes up. The dealers instead of manufacturers control the price here, that is the only difference.

That is the odd part though. If you look at total GT350 production, it's numbers are in line with past high performance models and I believe in line with number of ZL1's produced. So does that mean:

Despite there being better performing options, there is that much more demand for GT350 than ZL1 and Hellcat? There was always mark up the first few high performance variants(all makes) in my area, but those quickly died off. the 350 is something like I have never seen with some dealers still charging ADM. If that is the case that the demand is still there, then sure as hell looks like Ford did something right with it. But I don't know, is there that many more people with demand for High Performance Mustang's than other makes? I remember the first Z/28s by me. easy 100K with ADM, that lasted maybe a month or two. At the end they couldn't give them away. The ZL1 for how amazing it is, easy to get a deal one. Same with the Hellcat can get a deal on them. Hell even the Focus RS had ADM for while. Easy 5-10K over sticker for a few months. Now you can get 3500 of MSRP. But the GT350, still after 3 years has ADM in areas. They produce similar numbers to the other makes, is the Ford just that more in demand?

Now the R that is a bit tougher to tackle when you straight up say only making about 500 per year.

[ST1LE]

Originally Posted by newmoon

You are talking about a racing venue that 99% of these cars will never see. But yet you quickly dismiss the venues in which 100% of these cars will play in, makes sense

Are you talking about street racing now? I dont street race, so you can remove me from that 100%.

[JamesNoBrakes]

Originally Posted by SSfriendly

Year per year, the mustang has consistently offered a bigger variety of different model options. I have excluded Indy editions (both mustang and camaro), California special editions, premium interior trim levels etc. as they don’t represent a significant difference in models.

1979-93 Mustang (third gen):

“L, GL, GLX, LX, GT, GTS, Turbo GT, GT-350, SVO, Cobra, Cobra R, and Ghia.

1982-1992 camaro (third gen):

Sport Coupe, Berlinetta, Z28, IROC-Z, LT, RS

93-04 Mustang (fourth gen)

Mustang (v6), GT, GTS, SVT Cobra, Bullitt, Mach1, Terminator

93-02 Camaro (fourth gen)

Camaro (v6), Z28, SS

04-14 Mustang (fith gen) (excluding premium interior packages)

Mustang(V6), GT, Track Pack, Bullitt, GT500, Boss302, Boss302 Laguna Seca

09-15 Camaro (fith gen) (excluding up-level interior options)

LS, SS, Z28, ZL1

15-present Mustang (sixth gen) (excluding up-level interior options)

V6, EB, GT, PP1, PP2, GT350, GT350R, Soon to be Bullitt and GT500.

16-Present Camaro (sixth gen) (excluding up-level interior options)

LS, LT, SS, 1LE, ZL1, ZL11LE

As you can see, the mustang continuously produces more options than the Camaro.



Let’s compare the sheer volume of aftermarket parts available for each. Just through summit racing…

Mustang third gen.
Air and fuel -426
Brakes -331
Chassis and suspension -842
Engine and components -382
Exhaust -300

Camaro third gen
Air and fuel -211
Brakes -381
Chassis and suspension -794
Engine and components -385
Exhaust -233

Mustang sixth gen.
Air and fuel -241
Brakes -168
Chassis and suspension -154
Engine and components -133
Exhaust -280

Camaro sixth gen
Air and fuel -108
Brakes -135
Chassis and suspension -96
Engine and components -76
Exhaust -142

Again, the performance parts available for the mustang has always greatly outweighed camaro.

Well, it's nice to win at something, right?

[ST1LE]

Originally Posted by shaffe

That is the odd part though. If you look at total GT350 production, it's numbers are in line with past high performance models and I believe in line with number of ZL1's produced. So does that mean:

Despite there being better performing options, there is that much more demand for GT350 than ZL1 and Hellcat? There was always mark up the first few high performance variants(all makes) in my area, but those quickly died off. the 350 is something like I have never seen with some dealers still charging ADM. If that is the case that the demand is still there, then sure as hell looks like Ford did something right with it. But I don't know, is there that many more people with demand for High Performance Mustang's than other makes? I remember the first Z/28s by me. easy 100K with ADM, that lasted maybe a month or two. At the end they couldn't give them away. The ZL1 for how amazing it is, easy to get a deal one. Same with the Hellcat can get a deal on them. Hell even the Focus RS had ADM for while. Easy 5-10K over sticker for a few months. Now you can get 3500 of MSRP. But the GT350, still after 3 years has ADM in areas. They produce similar numbers to the other makes, is the Ford just that more in demand?

Now the R that is a bit tougher to tackle when you straight up say only making about 500 per year.

Yeah, you make solid points. Ford made enough GT350s to handle the supply, the insane amount of used ones for sale speaks to that I think. I think it boils down to more money than sense maybe? Ford seems does have some DIE hard followers, some seem willing to pay anything for a Mustang and for the latest and greatest! That is REALLY great, and like you said, obviously they did something right.

[kttxz06]

Originally Posted by newmoon

You are talking about a racing venue that 99% of these cars will never see-track. But yet you quickly dismiss the venues in which 100% of these cars will play in street, and the much more popular strip. Makes sense

Um, people buy the Zl1 1LE to track. Not to street race. So, you are wrong there. I didn't dismiss a thing. I actually said.........if the 500 doesn't handle the Zl1, which is it's competitor, not the 1LE, then they failed. I expect the 500 to handle the Zl1 it's ass. If it doesn't, then Ford flopped..........again.

The 500 will NOT be a track focused car. So, therefore, it won't even sniff the 1LE on the track. As I mentioned. Read.....fundamentals my friend.

The 500 will be a straight line one trick pony and I don't even think it will out track the Zl1. Well, if it comes prepped with the A10 and has all 350R suspension goodies and carbon wheels, then it should smack the Zl1. But, again, you are looking at a $100k 500 vs a $60k Zl1, so. At the price point, the 500 needs to line up with the ZR1. And lord knows, the ZR1 will beat it down. Does the cost justify the means? Just me personally. But, it should. That's the point. If it doesn't, it's a failure.

Now...........If Ford can actually get it together and pull out this 500 as I hope they will. I will be buying one. Again, the ADM will keep me out of the market. But, dreaming here. If it's A10 equipped. Can handle around the track and can run a 10.9 to 11.4 quarter and can come in at the $75k ish price point. I'm all in. I'd gladly let my Zl1 go. haha. Cus either way, if I get my hands on one, it's going to get modded regardless.

[DevilsReject97]

Originally Posted by SSfriendly

Year per year, the mustang has consistently offered a bigger variety of different model options. I have excluded Indy editions (both mustang and camaro), California special editions, premium interior trim levels etc. as they don’t represent a significant difference in models.

Let's fix this for you okay?

1979-93 Mustang (third gen):

“L, GL, GLX, LX, GT (These are not models, they are trims, essentially the same as 1LT, 2LT, 2LT/RS), GTS, Turbo GT, GT-350, SVO, Cobra, Cobra R, and Ghia.

1982-1992 camaro (third gen):

Sport Coupe, Berlinetta, Z28, IROC-Z, LT, RS, 1LE

93-04 Mustang (fourth gen)

Mustang (v6), GT, GTS, SVT Cobra, Bullitt, Mach1, Terminator(It's still an SVT Cobra)

93-02 Camaro (fourth gen)

Camaro (v6), Z28, RS, SS, 1LE

04-14 Mustang (fith gen) (excluding premium interior packages)

Mustang(V6), GT, Track Pack, Bullitt, GT500, Boss302, Boss302 Laguna Seca

09-15 Camaro (fith gen) (excluding up-level interior options)

LS, SS, Z28, 1LE, ZL1

15-present Mustang (sixth gen) (excluding up-level interior options)

V6, EB, GT, PP1, PP2, GT350, GT350R, Soon to be Bullitt and GT500. Which will replace the GT350 and most likely GT350R...and they won't be produced. Also, claiming PP1 and PP2 as actual models is absurd. They are performance packs. If you want to just say a GT PP, okay, I'll give you that....

18-present Mustang (sixth gen)

No V6

16-Present Camaro (sixth gen) (excluding up-level interior options)

LS, LT, SS, 1LE, ZL1, ZL11LE

As you can see, the mustang continuously produces more options than the Camaro.

No, it continually produces more "named" trims. The simple truth is that most of these cars are nothing more than a badged up GT with a different paint code or an extra 15hp. That's not producing more options, that's producing more ways to screw the customer for a lack of production.

[DevilsReject97]

Originally Posted by kttxz06

Um, people buy the Zl1 1LE to track. Not to street race. So, you are wrong there. I didn't dismiss a thing. I actually said.........if the 500 doesn't handle the Zl1, which is it's competitor, not the 1LE, then they failed. I expect the 500 to handle the Zl1 it's ass. If it doesn't, then Ford flopped..........again.

The 500 will NOT be a track focused car. So, therefore, it won't even sniff the 1LE on the track. As I mentioned. Read.....fundamentals my friend.

The 500 will be a straight line one trick pony and I don't even think it will out track the Zl1. Well, if it comes prepped with the A10 and has all 350R suspension goodies and carbon wheels, then it should smack the Zl1. But, again, you are looking at a $100k 500 vs a $60k Zl1, so. At the price point, the 500 needs to line up with the ZR1. And lord knows, the ZR1 will beat it down. Does the cost justify the means? Just me personally. But, it should. That's the point. If it doesn't, it's a failure.

Hell, I could easily see GM beating them to the punch and offering the ZL1 1LE with the A10, and change nothing else about the car...

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by ST1LE

Yeah, you make solid points. Ford made enough GT350s to handle the supply, the insane amount of used ones for sale speaks to that I think. I think it boils down to more money than sense maybe? Ford seems does have some DIE hard followers, some seem willing to pay anything for a Mustang and for the latest and greatest! That is REALLY great, and like you said, obviously they did something right.

Yeah I am really curious about it, is there just that many Ford fans with stupid money or is the car that desireable lol. Probably a combo of both

[SSfriendly]

Originally Posted by DevilsReject97

No, it continually produces more "named" trims. The simple truth is that most of these cars are nothing more than a badged up GT with a different paint code or an extra 15hp. That's not producing more options, that's producing more ways to screw the customer for a lack of production.

The models listed offer more horsepower, different suspension setups and in some cases totally different engine options. These aren't different paint codes with an upgraded leather interior or else I would have listed the california special and indy cars.

Every package I listed offered a significant difference from the other models, meaning horsepower and suspension changes to better suite a variety of people.

Are you saying that you would prefer not to have up-level camaros that give you more horsepower and better handling under warranty? I know damn well there are people that hate having summer only tires, and would prefer a cheaper lower level camaro.