[hotlap]

Mustang fans mock the Camaro as a parts bin car but those are some damn good parts from Cadillac and Corvette. The Mustang begins with the aim of being an inexpensive fleet car with the GT350R on the other end as the "halo". Camaro takes from high end cars with the freedom to be the best they can (ZL1-1LE).

Mustang fans mock GM's Nurburgring focus yet the only Mustang that "can" is the Nurburgring developed GT350R. The PP2 developed on evenings and weekend will have its hands full compensating for the steering and suspension mess that was reported in this review of the PP1

[SSfriendly]

Originally Posted by SuperSound

Different suspension pick up points and lighter components throughout (like was done with the Camaro) sounds like chassis specific changes. Maybe it is more suspension related, but it still proves the point that the GT and GT350 are worlds apart in design and components. Hence why the GT350 performs so much better.

Also when you cut weight on a chassis, it will definitely make it seem much better (i.e. Z/28 and the comments made earlier about R to non-R). A GT PP2 is not a GT350TP without the 5.2L. Because I don't recall Ford making a claim that they changed 90% of the suspension components on the PP2 like they did with the GT350.

I don't look at it so much as the S550 is so inferior to the Alpha, but Ford can't make the S550 do what the Alpha can do at the same price point.




Where is it mentioned that the 1LE had chassis improvements?

The only difference I can find between the 350 and GT is the carbon fiber grill opening reinforcement. The PP has always had the aluminum tower brace.

"The new platform is the strongest in the history of the Mustang brand, with torsional stiffness increased 28 percent over the previous model. That stiff structure ensures the suspension geometry remains consistent even under the loading caused by hard driving. Shelby GT350 takes that philosophy further – with added bracing to increase overall stiffness. A new lightweight aluminum tower brace connects the shock towers and firewall, and improves front end stiffness. When a lower hood was called for to improve aerodynamic performance, Ford Performance re-engineered the grille opening reinforcement with a carbon fiber composite structure that is 24 percent lighter than the base Mustang while maintaining the stiffness of steel. It is finished so well a beauty cover is not needed – eliminating another 1.9 pounds."

https://media.ford.com/content/fordm...-handling.html

The article I read about the 1LE and SS chassis differences was for the 5th gen….I was totally wrong in that regard.

So I’ll concede, the 1LE chassis sounds to be closer…but only by what amounts to a grill opening reinforcement.

I honestly don’t care which chassis is actually better…as they both have their merits. I just find it humorous at the perceived superiority of the 1LE chassis when most of the difference between these two cars handling is likely attributed to suspension and tires. Hell, is there even any data confirming the weight delta between the mustang and camaro is in the chassis and not the engine, suspension, interior etc.?

As for the PP2 changes…there are quite a bit.

“Working our way up, relative to the already stiffened Perf Pack springs, the Level 2 coils are 20 percent stiffer in front and 13 percent stiffer in the rear. Similarly, the anti-roll bars resist twist by an additional 12 percent in front and 67 percent in the rear. Oh, and between the lower-profile tires and suspension tweaks, the car hunkers down a half-inch closer to the road. Some of the midnight oil burning involved further tweaking of the Magneride shocks, electric steering assist, ABS, and stability control tuning. The aero work started off with a modified Boss 302 Laguna Seca front splitter that extends about 3 inches out from the front corners, developing 24 pounds of honest-ta-goodness front downforce at fast-sweeper speeds (80 mph).”

http://www.motortrend.com/news/2018-...t-look-review/

[SSfriendly]

Originally Posted by hotlap

Mustang fans mock the Camaro as a parts bin car but those are some damn good parts from Cadillac and Corvette. The Mustang begins with the aim of being an inexpensive fleet car with the GT350R on the other end as the "halo". Camaro takes from high end cars with the freedom to be the best they can (ZL1-1LE).

Mustang fans mock GM's Nurburgring focus yet the only Mustang that "can" is the Nurburgring developed GT350R. The PP2 developed on evenings and weekend will have its hands full compensating for the steering and suspension mess that was reported in this review of the PP1

Nothing wrong with parts that are damn good. The only ones mocking the camaro in that regard are sore losers.

As for the Nurburgring times...everyone mocks those. They are glory times...as the Nurburgring is a track unlike any-other.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by SSfriendly

Nothing wrong with parts that are damn good. The only ones mocking the camaro in that regard are sore losers.

As for the Nurburgring times...everyone mocks those. They are glory times...as the Nurburgring is a track unlike any-other.

Product testing in the most demanding environment appears to pay dividends. The "time" is just a byproduct.

[SuperSound]

Originally Posted by SSfriendly

The only difference I can find between the 350 and GT is the carbon fiber grill opening reinforcement. The PP has always had the aluminum tower brace.

Don't forget the custom wound springs, lighter brake components, larger brakes, wider front track, solid bushings/ball joints in places, completely different front aero, new aluminum front steering knuckles


https://media.ford.com/content/fordm...-handling.html


As for the PP2 changes…there are quite a bit.

“Working our way up, relative to the already stiffened Perf Pack springs, the Level 2 coils are 20 percent stiffer in front and 13 percent stiffer in the rear. Similarly, the anti-roll bars resist twist by an additional 12 percent in front and 67 percent in the rear. Oh, and between the lower-profile tires and suspension tweaks, the car hunkers down a half-inch closer to the road. Some of the midnight oil burning involved further tweaking of the Magneride shocks, electric steering assist, ABS, and stability control tuning. The aero work started off with a modified Boss 302 Laguna Seca front splitter that extends about 3 inches out from the front corners, developing 24 pounds of honest-ta-goodness front downforce at fast-sweeper speeds (80 mph).”

http://www.motortrend.com/news/2018-...t-look-review/

So essentially same changes made for the 1LE over the SS sans eLSD. So again why are we thinking it is anyway close to the number of changes on the GT350

Replied in red.

"According to Adam Wirth, suspension, wheel and tire supervisor at Ford Performance, 90 percent of the suspension has been altered in some way."

http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2...deep-dive.html


All you really need to look at is the weight differences in a GT350TP vs a GT PP1. That tells you plainly there are more changes than what you posted, all of which paid dividends on the GT350. So again, there are more differences in a GT PP2 to GT350 than a SS to 1LE in terms of handling.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by SSfriendly

I honestly don’t care which chassis is actually better…as they both have their merits. I just find it humorous at the perceived superiority of the 1LE chassis when most of the difference between these two cars handling is likely attributed to suspension and tires

Classic example of trying to downplay the SS by saying it's all in the suspension and tires. If that was the case, why did Ford just spend a shit load of money on the GT, push the engine to 460 hp, co-develop an A10 trans, raise the MSRP...when they could have just gave it some good tires? Granted, the Camaro did get a really really good tire. But attributing all of it's success to the tires and suspension is a sore loser's excuse. And you can't keep using that excuse forever. Plus, why would some alleged team of Ford enthusiasts have to spend countless nights after hours off the clock developing the PeePee2 if all they had to do was take the damn PeePee1 and get a contract for a better tire with one of the top tire companies? Stupidest excuse I ever heard.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by SSfriendly

There is nothing in there that mentions any chassis variations from the stock GT. Both the GT350 and 1LE mention chassis improvements, but neither pinpoint exactly what is meant.

As for the weight difference, that wasn’t done with chassis…but rather lighter weight suspension components as well as a carbon fiber front bumper support.

Fundamentally, the chassis (in both cases) are pretty much the same.



Exactly



You could also say that, despite being SEVERELY down on power and torque, the 350R is on the heels of the ZL1. See how that works?

You don’t realize just how good the stock SS1le tires are, do you? They may not be up to sport cup2 level…but by all accounts they are quite a fantastic offering.

So to sum it up, even if the PP2 paces or edges out the 1LE…the 1LE chassis is better because the 1LE is on the heels of the GT350? What?

And you are saying the chassis is better not based off of data, but because you don’t think the PP2 will edge out the 1LE?

Suspension tuning is where it’s all about. Both chassis are extremely rigid, but the 1LE has the best overall suspension for the track (VS the GT). That is why they are offering the PP2. Stiffer springs, heavier sway bars, wider, more track oriented tires, stiffer bushings, unique stability tuning, more aero bits etc.

I'll retract the chassis comment then and go with it appears GM has their track set up at the moment much more dialed in than Ford. If the PP2 doesn't severly close the gap or draw even then I will go back to feeling that the Alpha platform is currently better than the S550. The PP2 will have the tire advantage, the suspension set ups will be more comparable and power is about a draw.

Originally Posted by hotlap

Mustang fans mock the Camaro as a parts bin car but those are some damn good parts from Cadillac and Corvette. The Mustang begins with the aim of being an inexpensive fleet car with the GT350R on the other end as the "halo". Camaro takes from high end cars with the freedom to be the best they can (ZL1-1LE).

Mustang fans mock GM's Nurburgring focus yet the only Mustang that "can" is the Nurburgring developed GT350R. The PP2 developed on evenings and weekend will have its hands full compensating for the steering and suspension mess that was reported in this review of the PP1

That's the key word. This review. Be interesting to see if other reviews mention the apparent issues the Motor Trend car had. Not saying it would have made the match up any closer, but the steering feel has for the most part been something reviewers have liked about the Mustang in past reviews. It was odd to see them all dislike it in this review

[SSfriendly]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Classic example of trying to downplay the SS by saying it's all in the suspension and tires. If that was the case, why did Ford just spend a shit load of money on the GT, push the engine to 460 hp, co-develop an A10 trans, raise the MSRP...when they could have just gave it some good tires? Granted, the Camaro did get a really really good tire. But attributing all of it's success to the tires and suspension is a sore loser's excuse. And you can't keep using that excuse forever. Plus, why would some alleged team of Ford enthusiasts have to spend countless nights after hours off the clock developing the PeePee2 if all they had to do was take the damn PeePee1 and get a contract for a better tire with one of the top tire companies? Stupidest excuse I ever heard.

A classic example of needlessly rhetoric about power when clearly what you are quoting was talking about chassis and suspension. Good job.

Originally Posted by shaffe

I'll retract the chassis comment then and go with it appears GM has their track set up at the moment much more dialed in than Ford. If the PP2 doesn't severly close the gap or draw even then I will go back to feeling that the Alpha platform is currently better than the S550. The PP2 will have the tire advantage, the suspension set ups will be more comparable and power is about a draw.



That's the key word. This review. Be interesting to see if other reviews mention the apparent issues the Motor Trend car had. Not saying it would have made the match up any closer, but the steering feel has for the most part been something reviewers have liked about the Mustang in past reviews. It was odd to see them all dislike it in this review

Totally agree. If the pp2 fails to appreciably match the 1LE, the Alpha platform is either clearly superior....or Ford royally sucks at suspension tuning.

As for reviews...I think everything needs to be looked at with perspective. The performance bar is set really high right now. Just 4 short years ago, they would be praising the PP1GT as all mighty...but that's not the case. I'm sure the PP1 handles quite well (for most)...but is obviously lacking compared to the 1LE. My guess is, this is exactly why ford is offering the PP2, as the PP1 is far more of a GT than a track ready vehicle.

[13vertss]

One thing that seems to happen every time Probst drives a Camaro in videos, he praises up and down on how good the Alpha chassis is. Have never heard that when he drove any of the Mustangs.

[SSfriendly]

Originally Posted by 13vertss/r's

One thing that seems to happen every time Probst drives a Camaro in videos, he praises up and down on how good the Alpha chassis is. Have never heard that when he drove any of the Mustangs.

[13vertss]

Originally Posted by SSfriendly

I didn’t hear any bragging about how good the chassis was. He just said it was firmer and better then the out going mustang. Also it still lost to the gen5, so wasn’t that great loosing to the zeta chassis. Now go watch the head2heads with the 6gen SS, against the BMW, 350r, and this newest one.

[JamesNoBrakes]

Originally Posted by 13vertss/r's

One thing that seems to happen every time Probst drives a Camaro in videos, he praises up and down on how good the Alpha chassis is. Have never heard that when he drove any of the Mustangs.

What sold me on the 1LE was him laughing at how good it was while he was driving, one of the most honest indicators IMO.

1:46, 2:16

https://youtu.be/xjKjnbOsSEs

[Red Chief]

Love the outcome but it's disheartening to see the Camaro not selling as well as the sloppy Mustang.

I drive a F550 at work with more glass and mirrors than a dozen Camaros but you know what? You still have to be alert, check your mirrors often and always be situationally aware. Driving it isn't like going on a vacation from my Camaro.

It's actually the opposite. After driving a big truck all day, getting into my sleek, low, quick and agile car to drive home is such a good feeling.

[SSfriendly]

Originally Posted by 13vertss/r's

I didn’t hear any bragging about how good the chassis was. He just said it was firmer and better then the out going mustang. Also it still lost to the gen5, so wasn’t that great loosing to the zeta chassis. Now go watch the head2heads with the 6gen SS, against the BMW, 350r, and this newest one.

Says he can feel how rigid the body structure is. Less flex, less vibration. It's easy to see he enjoys the chassis, but dislikes the suspension.