[FATTEMUNK]

Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001

The two cars put out pretty much the same HP, and the Mustang is a bit heavier (100 lbs or so). SO, and difference above 100 MPH is most likely due to aerodynamic drag than anything else. We saw the differences of the ZL1 vs. the ZL1 1LE at the Nurburgring. The 1LE version had more aero designed for down force rather than reduced drag. So the 1LE was slower at high speeds, but carried much more speed through the turns, and in the end turned a much faster lap time. Also of note, the SS 1LE comes with extra aero for more down force.

The Mustang having 5 extra HP in no way is what makes the car win the mile race, aerodynamic drag surely is the answer.

I dont think it is drag, I think its DOHC vs OHV. Do some airflow mods and they will be better matched.

Edit: Just saw the transmission comments, I also think that is the culprit...

[metros11]

Originally Posted by FATTEMUNK

I dont think it is drag, I think its DOHC vs OHV. Do some airflow mods and they will be better matched.

Edit: Just saw the transmission comments, I also think that is the culprit...

Drag, gearing, power at specific RPM due to gearing... it's a combination of all.

[whiteboyblues2001]

Originally Posted by FATTEMUNK

I dont think it is drag, I think its DOHC vs OHV. Do some airflow mods and they will be better matched.

Edit: Just saw the transmission comments, I also think that is the culprit...

It's totally drag. Just so you know the equation for drag is a function of the velocity squared. So as you go from 40 to 80 miles per hour, your drag doesn't double, it quadruples.

Put your hand out of your car window at 50 MPH. You can see from that, there is a very large force associated with that speed. 150 MPH is three times faster, which would mean nine times more drag at 150 MPH than 50 MPH. That is just about an order of magnitude greater! So if your amount of drag at 50 MPG is 30 lbs. of force, it will be 270 lbs. of force at 150 MPH.

So, yes, aerodynamic drag is the most likely factor here in this test. If it were the engine (OHV vs. DHOC) like you said, that difference would appear at low speeds as well as high speeds (assuming you keep the two cars in meat of their respective power bands). Not JUST at high speeds. And not JUST high speeds that not-coincidentally are the speeds where aero is known to be the defining factor.

Yes, gearing plays a role, but OHV vs. DHOC is not a factor, because it would be a factor at lower speeds as well.

[BlaqWhole]

Such a shame when the athletic engine needs an entire mile to go only 6 MPH faster than the SS that has a truck engine with COPD. Petty win especially since they chose not to post the actual time it took both cars to get there. I'm assuming either the SS got there first or it was a tie.

[whiteboyblues2001]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Such a shame when the athletic engine needs an entire mile to go only 6 MPH faster than the SS that has a truck engine with COPD. Petty win especially since they chose not to post the actual time it took both cars to get there. I'm assuming either the SS got there first or it was a tie.

In the videos it appeared that the Mustang crossed the finish line first. But this was done in the dirt (it looked like a dry lake bed, can't remember where they said it was). So, I think times were not revealed because, well... it's racing on dirt. Which is pretty meaningless, unless you are racing monster trucks, or testing truck tires. I guess they just wanted to see what he trap speeds were after a mile. Or, MotorTrend wants to make sure they give Mustang fans some shred of something to cling to, since without that test, pharmaceutical companies would have to double their production of anti-depressant medications.

[EMTNLSS]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Such a shame when the athletic engine needs an entire mile to go only 6 MPH faster than the SS that has a truck engine with COPD. Petty win especially since they chose not to post the actual time it took both cars to get there. I'm assuming either the SS got there first or it was a tie.

They said they ran the race about 25 times and the Mustang finished first every time.

[SuperSound]

Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001

It's totally drag. Just so you know the equation for drag is a function of the velocity squared. So as you go from 40 to 80 miles per hour, your drag doesn't double, it quadruples.

Put your hand out of your car window at 50 MPH. You can see from that, there is a very large force associated with that speed. 150 MPH is three times faster, which would mean nine times more drag at 150 MPH than 50 MPH. That is just about an order of magnitude greater! So if your amount of drag at 50 MPG is 30 lbs. of force, it will be 270 lbs. of force at 150 MPH.

So, yes, aerodynamic drag is the most likely factor here in this test. If it were the engine (OHV vs. DHOC) like you said, that difference would appear at low speeds as well as high speeds (assuming you keep the two cars in meat of their respective power bands). Not JUST at high speeds. And not JUST high speeds that not-coincidentally are the speeds where aero is known to be the defining factor.

Yes, gearing plays a role, but OHV vs. DHOC is not a factor, because it would be a factor at lower speeds as well.

You would think if the aero is the factor, then the Mustang would have better FE than the Camaro, but it doesn't. They are identical on the highway and the Mustang is 1mpg less in town. So it sounds like the Coyote is not as "efficient" whereas the LT1 is. Or like was said earlier, the Camaro going into 5th at 140mph allowed the GT to catch up. I'd like to see the in car footage and exactly what MPH the GT passes.

[13vertss]

Originally Posted by SuperSound

You would think if the aero is the factor, then the Mustang would have better FE than the Camaro, but it doesn't. They are identical on the highway and the Mustang is 1mpg less in town. So it sounds like the Coyote is not as "efficient" whereas the LT1 is. Or like was said earlier, the Camaro going into 5th at 140mph allowed the GT to catch up. I'd like to see the in car footage and exactly what MPH the GT passes.

Highway speeds are only 65mph, not 150mph. The faster you go, the more down force.

[whiteboyblues2001]

Originally Posted by 13vertss/r's

Highway speeds are only 65mph, not 150mph. The faster you go, the more down force.

Yes, and remember that it is the square of the difference. So three times faster is nine times as much drag.

And, the 1LE adds significant aero designed for more downforce, causing more drag.

Oh, and by the way, the upcoming Mustang PP2 package adds some aero for increased downforce. Here is a quote from Ford's website:

"Critical to the success of the package is improved aerodynamics scores, which the team achieved by adding larger and lower front splitter and redesigned rear spoiler.

Gesek said the after-hours approach team members took to developing the Mustang GT Performance Pack Level 2 was so much fun because they set out to create their dream car.

“Our targets were aggressive,” he said, “and we nailed them.”

Using the splitter from the famed Mustang Boss 302 Laguna Seca as a benchmark, Mustang engineers attached the piece to the underside of the front to fan out as much as 3 inches around the corners of the Mustang GT. It creates about 24 pounds of downforce at 80 mph, helping give the car its exceptional grip. To balance the downforce, a subtle, redesigned rear spoiler stretches across the decklid."

(source link: http://performance.ford.com/enthusia...ce-pack-2.html)

These aero changes will not only increase downforce, they will increase drag.
So, what do you guys think will happen to the trap speed on a 1 mile course with these new changes? If you guessed a lower trap speed, you are correct.

[SuperSound]

Originally Posted by 13vertss/r's

Highway speeds are only 65mph, not 150mph. The faster you go, the more down force.

Yea but drag due to aero present at highway speeds. Just gets magnified at speed, but it would still impact performance at highway speeds. Someone needs to create an effective gearing chart for both. That will shows us quickly what impact the gears have. Then aero would be the only thing left.

Also just remember hearing this. A Ford engineer is on the TFL review talking about the the car being limited to 155(guessing the PP does away with that?) But they also talk about the new spoiler causing drag at those speeds and pulling it off, it could go higher. So there's drag on the GT too. I'm more inclined to believe gearing is the reason, but need to see what the RPMs/speed are for each.



3:35 and 4:45 mark

[whiteboyblues2001]

Originally Posted by SuperSound

Yea but drag due to aero is always present. Just gets magnified at speed, but it would still impact performance at highway speeds. Someone needs to create an effective gearing chart for both. That will shows us quickly what impact the gears have. Then aero would be the only thing left.

Also just remember hearing this. A Ford engineer is on the TFL review talking about the the car being limited to 155(guessing the PP does away with that?) But they also talk about the new spoiler causing drag at those speeds and pulling it off, it could go higher. So there's drag on the GT too. I'm more inclined to believe gearing is the reason, but need to see what the RPMs/speed are for each.



3:35 and 4:45 mark

There is drag on EVERY car. And normally, aerodynamic engineering on cars focuses mostly on reducing drag. But, the 1LE includes components added to the regular SS, to increase downforce for better cornering ability, which in this case increases drag.

And keep in mind, the components added need to add more downforce during the SLOWEST parts of the track - the turns. So to be effective, the aero bits have to be pretty significant. Which will have significant effects on drag, even at the lower speeds. But we are talking over 150MPH.

[Spartan268]

Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001

Yes, and remember that it is the square of the difference. So three times faster is nine times as much drag.

And, the 1LE adds significant aero designed for more downforce, causing more drag.

Oh, and by the way, the upcoming Mustang PP2 package adds some aero for increased downforce. Here is a quote from Ford's website:

"Critical to the success of the package is improved aerodynamics scores, which the team achieved by adding larger and lower front splitter and redesigned rear spoiler.

Gesek said the after-hours approach team members took to developing the Mustang GT Performance Pack Level 2 was so much fun because they set out to create their dream car.

“Our targets were aggressive,” he said, “and we nailed them.”

Using the splitter from the famed Mustang Boss 302 Laguna Seca as a benchmark, Mustang engineers attached the piece to the underside of the front to fan out as much as 3 inches around the corners of the Mustang GT. It creates about 24 pounds of downforce at 80 mph, helping give the car its exceptional grip. To balance the downforce, a subtle, redesigned rear spoiler stretches across the decklid."

(source link: http://performance.ford.com/enthusia...ce-pack-2.html)

These aero changes will not only increase downforce, they will increase drag.
So, what do you guys think will happen to the trap speed on a 1 mile course with these new changes? If you guessed a lower trap speed, you are correct.

So to cut it short. Gearing aside, if it's the regular SS which has less downforce, it would have a better speed at the end of it all compared to the 1LE? If so, I guess we should say the PP2 and 1LE should be left for the track days only as dragging them is counter-productive to their designs and intent.

[shaffe]

Are we still talking about the cars capabilities above 150mph?

Can we go back to nitrous being forced induction lol !

[whiteboyblues2001]

Originally Posted by Spartan268

So to cut it short. Gearing aside, if it's the regular SS which has less downforce, it would have a better speed at the end of it all compared to the 1LE? If so, I guess we should say the PP2 and 1LE should be left for the track days only as dragging them is counter-productive to their designs and intent.

Yes, but it only comes into play at higher speeds. This won't effect 0-60 times. The ZL1 vs. ZL1 1LE Nurburgring videos shows that the ZL1 1LE reaches a lower top speed on that course, but turns a faster lap time. But it's not just the aero that makes the ZL1 1LE turn faster lap times, there are many other improvements over the regular ZL1, like DSSV dampers, bigger wheels/tires, etc... BUT, it is all about the aerodynamics when it comes to the top speed on that track, because DSSV dampers aren't slowing you down at high speeds. The bigger wheels and tires are, because they add more drag. And the added aero definitely slowed the car down in terms of top speed on that track.

And the same can be said for the Mustang vs. Camaro H2H here. The Camaro has bigger tires, and hence, more drag at high speeds.

But in short, yes, adding aero bits for increased downforce will negatively effect high speeds and top speeds. If road course and/or canyon carving is not your thing, you could skip these parts.