[13vertss]

Originally Posted by FastCarFanBoy

quick look at those pictures...

Picture 2, That piston is twisted in the bore indicating the piston probably hit the valves rather than the valves dropping.

3 and 4 show an absurd amount of corrosion and deposits. certainly not a well maintained motor. could easily have been detonation that caused the valve to fracture.

the Coyote has had its faults over the years , but I have never heard of valve issues.

One of the pics is a 2018, hopefully just a fluke.

[oldman]

Originally Posted by newmoon

30K was a great price on your 16, the 20-25% discount would be the only way to go. While I am impressed by the performance of the 18 GT especially over what the 15-17 GT were doing I still prefer my Boss over it in looks and fun factor, the right price GT350 might get me out of the Boss, but not a standard GT.

Haven't been to the dragstrip with the car yet, but maybe this Spring.

Heck I love the GT350, If I could "upgrade" form my ride for say $20 grand, I'd do it. I've been checking... I'm not really worried about beat on or warranty. Most GT 350 people (IMO) really have this as a once in a while pure pleasure car and drive something like a beat Miata at the autoX.

[oldman]

Originally Posted by vtirocz

The PS4s put down relatively poor handling and braking #s in C&D's test of the performance pack Mustang. I'm not yet convinced they are all that much better than the stock F1s on the Camaro.

I have to read the article, I have PS4s on my Camaro, this is the third set of tires I've had. I very happy with the tire. I do understand the placebo effect and also new rubber always makes the older rubber seem less capable. Objectively I can consistently nail sub 4.0 0-60s FBO M6 with the Pilots, that was not possible with the F1s nor the Yokos I had. Unfortunately I can't go back to a new set of F1 and compare unless I find a brother in Austin.

Edit, I just read the article "Our first stint was in a blazing Orange Fury Metallic GT equipped with the six-speed manual and the optional Performance package, which for V-8 models adds tauter suspension, Brembo six-piston front brake calipers, more robust engine cooling, a Torsen limited-slip differential, and Michelin Pilot Sport 4S performance tires—255/40R-19 front, 275/40R-19 rear—on black-painted aluminum wheels. Our car also had the optional Active Valve Performance Exhaust and new-for-2018 MagneRide adaptive magnetorheological dampers—technologies that have been available on the sixth-gen Camaro since it hit the market for the 2016 model year. If you can’t beat ’em, match their mufflers and dampers.


Thundering along Mulholland Highway and Latigo Canyon Road, the GT was impressive in its impassiveness. Steering feel is a bit distant, but it dives for the corners with razor-sharp precision and scythes through bends with zero drama. The car was pinned to the road as if pressed into it by the great engineer in the sky, seemingly tethered around the torturously tight turns—which allowed us to pin the throttle aggressively even across pavement heaves. ".

Edit the second test, which to my mind really shows the engine change as it is a manual, basically says at least for the M6 the more powerful engine yields NO usable performance as verified by their test, you do get some unusable performance (on the street) during the top end charge:
"In testing, our six-speed manual transmission (a 10-speed automatic is optional) matched the zero-to-60-mph time of the outgoing car at 4.3 seconds but opened 0.3-second and 3-mph gaps through the quarter-mile with a 12.6-second run at 115 mph. By 150 mph, the new GT was 2.4 seconds quicker. "

So as I stated before I even new this test existed, that much of the 2018's performance is more A10 and tire related. I stand by that. The review tends to bare this out as this M6 performance pack is lack luster. I'm more in love with the Pilots and the A10.


"Cornering grip rises slightly to 0.96 g (we saw 0.94 g in the old model) thanks to the GT Performance pack, but that’s just a number. It wasn’t until we took the GT through the Angeles National Forest that we learned how it has adopted the stability and willingness of the GT350. Body roll is tightly checked, the magnetorheological dampers glue the tires to the tarmac without brutalizing the ride, and the Michelins give more warnings than a TSA officer. Even the electrically assisted steering reacts naturally and has pleasing heft. "

[chrisx66]

Originally Posted by FastCarFanBoy

quick look at those pictures...

Picture 2, That piston is twisted in the bore indicating the piston probably hit the valves rather than the valves dropping.

3 and 4 show an absurd amount of corrosion and deposits. certainly not a well maintained motor. could easily have been detonation that caused the valve to fracture.

the Coyote has had its faults over the years , but I have never heard of valve issues.

I’ll contact Ford and tell them they put the piston in crooked from the factory. Next one that comes in locked up, missfiring or knocking before I tear it down I’ll get your expert opinion on it since you’ve never heard of them having valve issues. My 30 years with Ford and heads and short blocks being on backorder mean nothing.

[FastCarFanBoy]

Originally Posted by chrisx66

I’ll contact Ford and tell them they put the piston in crooked from the factory. Next one that comes in locked up, missfiring or knocking before I tear it down I’ll get your expert opinion on it since you’ve never heard of them having valve issues. My 30 years with Ford and heads and short blocks being on backorder mean nothing.

so... you ordered a new head and were going to bolt that motor up and send it on its way?

if you're going to post pictures of motors that have had valves issues at least try to find some where an amateur mechanic cant easily determine the valve wasn't the cause.

[chrisx66]

[QUOTE=FastCarFanBoy;10039739]so... you ordered a new head and were going to bolt that motor up and send it on its way?

if you're going to post pictures of motors that have had valves issues at least try to find some where an amateur mechanic cant easily determine the valve wasn't the cause.



My thought was that the valves broke, hit the piston and bent the rod, guess I was wrong. Ford just built that one with a crooked piston in it, I should have just straightened the piston instead of putting a short block and a new head on it. I’ll contact Ford and let them know they’re not putting pistons in straight. Thanks for your help.

[jmackisback]

Originally Posted by chrisx66

My thought was that the valves broke, hit the piston and bent the rod, guess I was wrong. Ford just built that one with a crooked piston in it, I should have just straightened the piston instead of putting a short block and a new head on it. I’ll contact Ford and let them know they’re not putting pistons in straight. Thanks for your help.

[Nabush]

Originally Posted by oldman

Thank god. A real design / engineering parameter. Dully recognized.

FYI I'm an Engineer... . I'm "Ingénieur Arts et Metiers" which means Industrial Engineering / Master MBA if you want, and currently Maintenance Manager in a very big company...So I know a little about engineering thank you

We came so far in baby steps, only to fall off the wagon. I love playing false parameters. The LT1 makes 400% more HP per cam, The LT1 makes 100% more HP per valve, the LT1 makes 400% more HP per cam gear. Wow fake calculated parameters are so fun. I glad we can all play. Want to play more? The lt1 makes 100% more HP per valve retainer, 100% more HP per valve. Please



I don't care about your numbers...Find me a 4.5 NA OHV engine making 570hp, a 4.0 NA OHV making 500hp...
Per displacement you can make way more power with DOHC, period. And if we start talking racing, 3.0 V10 maling 900+hp in formula 1 in 2004-2005....




http://www.aviation-history.com/engines/db605.htm
It is actually where the weight is. Top of engine = bad, bottom of engine = good. Smart thing to do would be flip the V upside down kind of like a ME 109.



I know very well the ME-109 thanks, planes like car or truck always interested me as an engineer.



Really then I guess this does not exist?
https://www.mechadyne-int.com/products/duocam/

I wonder what under that big Viper hood, must be a DOHC then?

I'm probably have the most VTEC experience here, let me see this Ford cam over bucket 4 valve design do variable lift You want variable lift? All LT1 can completely shut off 4 cylinders... Nada lift.



Did I say somewhere the Coyote had variable lift ? I was talking about the superior adjustability of the DOHC.

As far as the viper I didn't know, but seeing the principle I've already read about it in the past. But unless I'm wrong the Viper is the only car using it from factory, on the contrary of DOHC engines



From a company that can't keep the spark plugs in the head since the early 90s... um yea right.

I race DOHC motors, are you kidding me? A high lift DOHC engine is very finicky to valve spring and wear. These engines need to have their springs and titanium retainers thrown away every 20K or else. I've floated OHV valve engines 100 if not 1000 of times. Try that on a 9600 RPM DOHC and let me know what happens a millisecond later. Look, the engines I build I have to worry about connecting rod stretch bringing the piston into contact with valves that are NOT floating.




Ohhh you race engine ? Me too figure it !!!! And at not some crappy tracks, I tracked at Le Mans several times in France cause I was only 1 hour away from it, as well as several other tracks.

And I used only DOHC engines cause obviously there is only that in Europe/Asia....

Euro BMW M3 E36 (7900 rpm with CAI/Exhaust/tune), Track Prepped Nissan 350Z HR (7800 rpm redline on mine)/ Renault Sport Megane 3 RS trophy... Never any issues with dropped valves or spring issues

Starts at 2 min 06 (heating lap before)



Starts around 2 min 30






Last time I checked I can buy a supercharged LT engine with bumper to bumper and even extended warranty. But I'm game, the oldlady wants to go back to racing and an A10 GT is reasonable for me. Please post a link to this Ford warranty bumper to bumper ton of power engine. Heck I might roll one tomorrow.



Are you playing dumb ? I'm talking about after market support, not stock engines. I pretty know the Z06/ZL1 as I almost bought one before ordering a GS....



Looks like a child drew this chart what is this in SAE, STP, pure fiction? Are you going to pretend the 460 HP certified HP that the 5.0 puts out is more than the 526 certified HP the Voodoo puts out? Clearly not. We all know how the 5.2 compared to the older OHV LS engine right? This is the REAL SAE certification standard:
http://www.sae.org/certifiedpower/details.htm

Not some crayon dyno with no listing of what the HP means, you do know that a unicorn is a horse right?



This chart is one among 10 other showing the new Coyote making stock between 415 to 430 WHP SAE
If you don't trust it, go watch Youtube.




http://fordauthority.com/wp-content/...-dyno-plot.jpg

Please read the whole article carefully. Also understand that the LS7 is a SAE certified engine and the dyno racers in the article can't figure out why their chassis dyno can't replicate the certified HP yielding to all kinds of head scratching. My take away is that pretty old fashion 15% drivetrain loss is probably less that 15% (especially FWD with engine trans axle rotation in same direction). Two and I would love to see test but I would speculate and the chassis dyno bares this out that drivetrain loss is more RPM related than torque related. IE putting 400 ft lbs thru a manual gear box and diff then upping it 50% to 600 ft lbs, friction loss is NOT as great as putting 6000 RPM thru same box and upping it to 9000 RPM. Cleary centripetal inertia is RPM related not torque related. I would be happy to enter into drivetrain friction discussion in the transmission section. Yet people try to apply the same 15% rule. The 5.2 puts out more engine HP, yet generated nearly the same wheel HP in the dyno run. I'm not surprised by the lighter 350R wheel showing up as more HP to the dyno. I'd bet if there was a wheel swap between the two Mustangs, the plain jane 350 would show more HP.

http://www.motortrend.com/news/dyno-...nd-camaro-z28/




I've already read this article a long time ago. You think I'm learning something from about transmissions ? I spent hours of my life making real mechanical calculations (with Mathematics, Physics, thermodynamics, i have books about mechanical engineering of transmissions, torque converters, how to dimension a gear and calculate the efforts of the teeth, the shafts, the keys, I also did finite elements calculation with computer software etc etc...)



Please I don't want to confuse power band which is obviose in the above chart with " wider power band on the Coyote than on the LT1....It requires to be higher in the rpm yes.." Power band is the area under the applied curve and it is all OHV baby.



What nonsense.... Except in 1st gear the coyote will always stay between 5000-7500 during shifts. Average power will stay around 400 whp during the whole acceleration. To be fair we should go in detail of each rpm drops between shifts to calculate average power up to 150mph for both cars, which I don't have the time to do be honest, I work already 65-70h per week, my time is precious, i've already spent too much of it on that specific answer....

But the car being equally fast, the mustang being heavier, it means the Coyote developps better average power during acceleration.



All from a guy that is worried about some bolt ons failing his springs.. The engine is certified at 460 HP period, the lt1 3 years older is at 455 in the Camaro. Granted that the new A10 will allow a peaky engine to apply more of that HP under the curve to the ground. My take is at least 1/2 to all of this engine talk is attributed to the A10. Wait till the A10 comes behind a cam in cam 500 HP LT1 then what?



I'm not worried about my bolt ons failing my springs, are you taking me for a idiot ? I'm worried my springs fail, period.
If my springs fail with a stock engine = warranty = not a so big deal
If my springs fail with bolt ons = no warranty = big deal

Saying the new Coyote is a peaky engine I drive both engine buddy, I garantee you the Coyote is not peaky at all.




The only true measure of efficiency when it comes to muscle car engines is HP per package volume. Which looking at the dyno I posted clearly shows which engine is FAR more "efficient". Let me know when a DOHC shows up at top fuel.... LOL

Ah ? Where does this rule come from ?

See my answers in red ...

[Deakins]

You know the best thing about threads like this...at least all of us real car guys know that all the wannabes will be in here arguing while we are at the track. All the mustang I've raced against were driven by cool people that loved cars and racing...Not some fanboy that just wants to run his mouth. Of course most of them had GT350's that were paid for so maybe it's a class thing with the cheap mustang bringing in the bottom feeders...?

[oldman]

Originally Posted by Nabush

FYI I'm an Engineer... . I'm "Ingénieur Arts et Metiers" which means Industrial Engineering / Master MBA if you want, and currently Maintenance Manager in a very big company...So I know a little about engineering thank you

And that still does not make HP per liter a design parameter. Never doubted your personal qualifications.

Originally Posted by Nabush

I don't care about your numbers...Find me a 4.5 NA OHV engine making 570hp, a 4.0 NA OHV making 500hp...

HP per liter is not an engineering or design parameter you ask for nonsensical data to prove a fictional parameter. I can play too: Find me a DOHC engine that makes 500 HP per intake valve?

An OHV makes more power per external size, more power per weight, a lower center of gravity (unless we are talking ME 109), more power per cost, is rebuildable, has a much broader and significantly higher torque per external size. All of these details are engineering elements.

Originally Posted by Nabush

Per displacement you can make way more power with DOHC,

Never once said that you can't. Since there is no design criteria as HP per liter, who cares? It is canard dreamed up. You keep tossing that straw man out there. I don't know why? I could easily argue the usefulness of DOHC engines and not once bring up a calculated and meaningless parameter.

And if we start talking racing, 3.0 V10 maling 900+hp in formula 1 in 2004-2005....

Basically you claiming an engine designed per an unknow to me set of rules is superior... to XYZ Clearly a 1200 HP V8 OHV could also be built for the "rules". The discussion is on drag racing and 1/4 mile. Please let me know when 900 HP million dollar V10 DOHC become dominant at local drags.

Rules unlimited, that why I brought up top fuel... it is all large displacement OHV. Basically most drag racing from run what your brung to top fuel is large displacement OHV because of the design and engineering parameters list above. Cost, rebuild, easy to work on, less exotic material, dependability, more HP per size and weight, more torque per size and weight.

But always interested in F1, Austin has F1 and these engines are all hybrid based with hybrid forced induction systems. I will conceded right now that electro magnetic technology will replace DOHC with actuated valves
http://www.launchpnt.com/portfolio/t...valve-actuator

Or even individual runner electric turbos controlling everything no throttle body, no spark, a compression ignition gas engine via IR electric boost.

I know very well the ME-109 thanks, planes like car or truck always interested me as an engineer.

There are others here that might be interested, I did not mean to imply that you did not know all there is to know.

Add in fuel injection, variable speed supercharger, meth injection. Then on the Kurt Tank Ta-152 you get N2O injection and 2 cannons in the wing and 1 huge cannon in the nose. Many people think it has a radial engine, but it was a inverted V12.

But anybody that really cares knows it not DOHC engines that won the war (sorry P-51) it was the old OHV, cause it was just plain BIG internally per external size, yes a design criteria :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wright...Duplex-Cyclone

So no rules, need to win a war, biggest engine that fits the chassis wins.

Did I say somewhere the Coyote had variable lift ? I was talking about the superior adjustability of the DOHC.

Sorry, you clearly listed adjustable lift as one of the superior adjustments in favor of DOHC, I merely pointed out that the LT1 had adjustable lift (in fact the MOST adjustable lift of any engine) and the Coyote had Nada, must have hit a nerve

As far as the viper I didn't know, but seeing the principle I've already read about it in the past. But unless I'm wrong the Viper is the only car using it from factory, on the contrary of DOHC engines

AFAIK that is true, you have to admit it looks pretty simple to gain 20% increase in HP for the Viper (with supporting mods). Which really put is HUGE.


Note if you are NOT interested in what DOHC is used for in a modern engine skip:

I'm familiar with many DOHC engines, Honda, Toyota, Volvo most of their engines use variable overlap for either cold start up emissions or in the case of Toyota to implement Miller / Atkinson cycles. Volvo for instance has variable overlap only on the exhaust via cam phaser and that is only to dump raw fuel down the exhaust to light the cat so the engine can pass CA ULEV2 standards. Honda AFAIK only uses I-VTEC in only one engine the K20z with about 500 cars to date sold for actual increase in HP. The K20z in the average Civic uses I-VTEC which does vary one cam in both phase (the I) and the lift: VTEC, only to induce swirl into the chamber for smog by shutting of 1 or the 2 intake valves. Once again it is a smog issue. The exact same technology is use world wide to implement lean burn, but alas not in the US cause of smog.

I absolutely agree that a DOHC engine is better to dump huge quantities of raw fuel down the exhaust port to make the engine just a smiggen clean, and if that is done to every car in California ULEV2 or ZPV, and with that smiggen decrease it would equal the toxins emitted by a very small village in Nepal's mopeds. Once gain the technology is being used for smog.

The only engine (outside of the Type R) that I know of and I that used overlap and lift for performance it the GM design (IVLC)in the Impala

http://media.gm.com/media/us/en/gm/n...takevalve.html

Ohhh you race engine ? Me too figure it !!!! And at not some crappy tracks, I tracked at Le Mans several times in France cause I was only 1 hour away from it, as well as several other tracks.

I race car production engines driven by Joe Average, never claimed to be the head of Ferrari.

And I used only DOHC engines cause obviously there is only that in Europe/Asia....

Actually you use them probably because of a rule constraint. I'm sure a 7 liter OHV engine would perform just fine.

Euro BMW M3 E36 (7900 rpm with CAI/Exhaust/tune), Track Prepped Nissan 350Z HR (7800 rpm redline on mine)/ Renault Sport Megane 3 RS trophy... Never any issues with dropped valves or spring issues

Yep bucks unlimited and a RULE CONSTRAINT. I'm quite sure a 7000 RPM 7 liter GM engine in either chassis would absolutely dominate by a wide margin and far less dollars and fit just fine in the chassis.

Every case you have brought up is because of a rule favoring engine displacement.... yet you can't see that. Oh well I tried.

Originally Posted by oldman

Last time I checked I can buy a supercharged LT engine with bumper to bumper and even extended warranty. But I'm game, the oldlady wants to go back to racing and an A10 GT is reasonable for me. Please post a link to this Ford warranty bumper to bumper ton of power engine. Heck I might roll one tomorrow.

Are you playing dumb ? I'm talking about after market support, not stock engines. I pretty know the Z06/ZL1 as I almost bought one before ordering a GS....

I guess I am more than playing dumb you claimed there was a warrantied supercharger HP for cheap on the 2018 GT, I was all set to buy. But alas it is some heavily qualified warranty, that you still have not supplied the link to. I merely point out that GM for the masses is supplying a relatively affordable supercharged solution on an OHV engine bumper to bumper even. This drastically undercuts your argument about warranty and forced induction being somehow favoring DOHC BTW.

Looks like for this topic affordable bumper to bumper supercharged performance is only available from GM on a OHV V8. I guess no link is coming for the affordable warranty supercharged 2018 GT. I was all set to get one.

This chart is one among 10 other showing the new Coyote making stock between 415 to 430 WHP SAE

As soon as you show me the SAE part. And as I pointed out there is a REAL SAE and they do certify the LS7, and the dyno racers are still trying to figure out why there is no magical way to get WHP, into engine SAE certified engine HP.

So no youtube does not equal a SAE certification. For me I'm 99.99% sure the new 5.0 makes 460 SAE HP, and care little about crayon charts.

But please, I'm actually interested in seeing an dynojet SAE corrected run of the new 5.0

I have no doubt that youtube has all sorts of STP, Hub, eddy current, crayon charts are easy to produce and as stated a Unicorn is a horse.

You list your qualifications, I've sent you a link to what a SAE certified engine is. Somehow you take youtube wheel or hub or who knows, call them caryon dynos as some sort of indication that that the new 5.0 is somehow making more HP? OK then.

[FastCarFanBoy]

you wont see a DOHC in Top Fuel because they arent permited by the rules.

[oldman]

Originally Posted by FastCarFanBoy

you wont see a DOHC in Top Fuel because they arent permited by the rules.

yawn, you go with that. drag racing is the most HP per package size, weight and cost. That is clearly OHV. Please find me something like the pump gas shoot out any DOHC. I followed the Supra guy for a while with the 2JZ, lots of promises lots of problems, and as far as I know he never once actually finished the pump gas drags despite the claims 1000 HP dyno runs.
http://www.hotrod.com/articles/hrdp-...ump-gas-drags/
Nutshell, simple rules: drivable, on gas, who wins? OHV.

If I was not a big DOHC, I would not have followed the Supra to see if he could bring it, he can't.

Will the new 5.0 with crazy mods be at the 2018 pump gas shoot out, I hope so. Will DOHC dominate say in 10 years? dunno I doubt it. Why do I doubt it? The engine has 4 inch bore centers, meaning that there is all kinds of heat and sealing issues. Why does it have 4.0 bore centers? simple cause DOHC engines are so friggen huge externally, if the engine had 4.4 bore centers Ford could only put it in a large truck. Also there is crankshaft whip issue with a small bore center engine at high RPM as the harmonics creep up and down the shaft vs less bearing area (mains are seated between bore centers). So there ya go. Reasonable cost performance favors the bigger short block with more cooling and sealing, with more main bearing surface and less need for RPM to make HP.

From Honda racing there is a max of 9500 PEAK RPM for shot durations like an autocross on a 86mm stroke engine (27.233 meters / second). Any further increase in RPM results in the breakdown of the oil film of the piston and bore. Ford is pushing 93 mm with the Voodoo, looks like the at 8250 RPM (25.575 m/s), quick number crunch 8800 RPM PEAK for shot durations (27.1 m/s) is the limit, Ford is really close to oil film breakdown stock. So a really crazy NA build that could incease peak HP and RPM would be limited to oil film to 8500 RPM with a fuel cut at 8800 would wield a build of 526 HP x 1.13 increase in engine speed breather = 600 HP. Sure this is a ball park figure, but you can see there is a limit to a 4.0 bore spaced engine.

For grins the LS7 has a 101.6 stroke so give the same max piston speed: 8500 rpm for 27.s m/s, clearly the LS7 even in its most wild configuration is not going to hit a piston speed issue. As an aside the limit to a OHV engine without cam in cam technology or some sort of rocker arm VTEC would be the ability to idle, given a 7 liter LT1 engine and maintain some drivability say 700 to 750 HP, depending on one's definition of idle and drivability. Pray is already pushing 600 WHP on what would appear to be a daily driver, Katch is at 707 STP engine HP on a 7.0, so I'm probably pretty close. Maybe with the Victory JR head and kooks headers could get a little more. Basically take the intake flow number x2 = engine HP.


Take away the limit is not the breathing it is the stroke and it is going to get really hard to get more HP. Hence Ford has hit two dead ends: can't bore, and can't stroke. The OHV engine is just fine. Hence just about any discussion about the 5.0 has to turn into but if you add a supercharger.. cause they (5.0 buffs) have no other option.

http://www.chevyhardcore.com/tech-st...the-winner-is/

So for a drivable engine on a $10,000 build the Coyote is about 520 HP, say 550 HP on the new direct inject. A 7 liter texas speed crate engine is about 700 HP. Torque of course follows, at no time will the Coyote put out more peak torque vs the minimum torque of a 7.0 over its applied band, which is really important in an autoX. huge bucks 5.2 DOHC build I'm saying 600 HP is a nearly impossible wall to climb due to oil film issues, no matter what the dyno says. For the LT1 OHV, it is idle and driveability at 700 to 750 HP, maybe a little more with E85 and Victor JR heads, and way way way way cheaper. That is an impossible gulf to swim.

Sans FI, on the street it is going to be HARD to beat a LT1, Ford engine too weak, Dodge is too heavy.




Like I stated a while back there was a REALLY quick Mustang at the drags I went over to see what was under the hood, thinking 351C or 460, something, nope LS engine.

Actually I would absolutely love to see a NA, 9000 or 10,000 rpm DOHC V8 drag engine. Note due to the stoke and oil film AFAIK you won't see a 5.0 or 5.2 doing the same RPM on the AutoX, unless it is trailered in and engine toss every once in a while.

[carguy55]

Another MT screwed up H2H. What we really want to see but no one has done it yet and on a road course:

GT350 vs SS 1LE it's going to be close

GT PP2 vs SS 1LE even a better match

[metros11]

Originally Posted by Deakins

Of course most of them had GT350's that were paid for so maybe it's a class thing with the cheap mustang bringing in the bottom feeders...?

That's not nice.