[hotlap]

Originally Posted by FastCarFanBoy

You have to understand the mentality of the "keep it stock because warranty crowd". They have to buy the new model every time one drops or they no longer have the bragging rights of the best stock performance available.

I should sell my paid off car to run out and buy an '18 that is 2 seconds slower for the convenience of some tech features I will never use and a $350 monthly note.

In the case of the gen6 Camaro, Alpha goodness, lighter weight, better interior and LT1 torque were sufficient motivation to trade up. As Reuss said before the launch, gen5 ZL1 "satisfaction" from the SS. The S550 moved backward on some levels

[newmoon]

Originally Posted by ST1LE

I bet he could afford one if he wanted, but just like us he knows the GT is not worth $50K.

The S550 is not faster than what he drives, so why switch? Not exactly an upgrade.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes I could afford one if I wanted but I prefer not to throw my money away again with the massive 1st year depreciation hit when buying new, been there done that. That being said I still prefer the looks and rawness of my Boss over either the new GT or SS, it may be a tick slower but I know the chances of me seeing my car multiple times a day are slim to none. I have seen two Boss mustangs in my area in the 5+ years they have been around.

Maybe in a couple years when these new 16-18s have dropped in value I might be interested in a used GT350 or ZL1 if the price is right, but in the meantime I will enjoy what I have.

[ST1LE]

Originally Posted by FastCarFanBoy

You have to understand the mentality of the "keep it stock because warranty crowd". They have to buy the new model every time one drops or they no longer have the bragging rights of the best stock performance available.

I should sell my paid off car to run out and buy an '18 that is 2 seconds slower for the convenience of some tech features I will never use and a $350 monthly note.

For sure man!

[ST1LE]

Originally Posted by newmoon

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes I could afford one if I wanted but I prefer not to throw my money away again with the massive 1st year depreciation hit when buying new, been there done that. That being said I still prefer the looks and rawness of my Boss over either the new GT or SS, it may be a tick slower but I know the chances of me seeing my car multiple times a day are slim to none. I have seen two Boss mustangs in my area in the 5+ years they have been around.

Maybe in a couple years when these new 16-18s have dropped in value I might be interested in a used GT350 or ZL1 if the price is right, but in the meantime I will enjoy what I have.

You and I are on the same page 100%. While not a Mustang or Camaro, I feel the same about my M3. The latest and greatest isn't always that great. New M's are completely soul-less in comparison to the feel I get driving a hydraulic steering car with a high revving, naturally aspirated V8 .

I do crave a manual, and like you in 2-3 years I will be looking to add another pony car to the stable, and will be looking at used GT350's and ZL1's. I have a love hate with the GT350. Love the engine, but am afraid to own one out of warranty. Going to pay close attention to longevity over the next few years and see how it shakes out. If that is not a viable option, having another torque monster in the garage next to the M would be real nice, and the ZL1 would fit that bill beautifully.

[chrisx66]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nabush

Don't speak to me about longevity, LS / LT motors are more prone to failure than Ford engines, no valve dropping issues on the Coyote...

I'm putting LT headers, CAI and MSD Intake on my 17 GS, and since I lose my warranty I'm freaking out and need to change my Valve springs by better one not to risk a broken engine because of this flaw. Valve dropping is notorious on OHV engines, almost inexistent in DOHC....






I work on them, these are just a few I’ve worked on. I have to take photos and send them to Ford for prior approval. I have plenty more if you’d like to see them. Ford has a lot of valve issues especially the last 5 years. I’m sure GM has its fair share of issues as well, I’ve been pretty fortunate with my Camaro’s and Silverado’s for the most part they have been trouble free.




First pic 18 5.0. 330 miles

Second pic 17 5.0 900 miles

Third and fourth pic 14 5.0 45k miles

Fifth pic 17 5.0 13k miles

[Chadicus]

Originally Posted by chrisx66

Don't speak to me about longevity, LS / LT motors are more prone to failure than Ford engines, no valve dropping issues on the Coyote...

I'm putting LT headers, CAI and MSD Intake on my 17 GS, and since I lose my warranty I'm freaking out and need to change my Valve springs by better one not to risk a broken engine because of this flaw. Valve dropping is notorious on OHV engines, almost inexistent in DOHC....






I work on them, these are just a few I’ve worked on. I have to take photos and send them to Ford for prior approval. I have plenty more if you’d like to see them. Ford has a lot of valve issues especially the last 5 years. I’m sure GM has its fair share of issues as well, I’ve been pretty fortunate with my Camaro’s and Silverado’s for the most part they have been trouble free.




First pic 18 5.0. 330 miles

Second pic 17 5.0 900 miles

Third and fourth pic 14 5.0 45k miles

Fifth pic 17 5.0 13k miles

That second picture wow lol.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by chrisx66

Don't speak to me about longevity, LS / LT motors are more prone to failure than Ford engines, no valve dropping issues on the Coyote...

I'm putting LT headers, CAI and MSD Intake on my 17 GS, and since I lose my warranty I'm freaking out and need to change my Valve springs by better one not to risk a broken engine because of this flaw. Valve dropping is notorious on OHV engines, almost inexistent in DOHC....






I work on them, these are just a few I’ve worked on. I have to take photos and send them to Ford for prior approval. I have plenty more if you’d like to see them. Ford has a lot of valve issues especially the last 5 years. I’m sure GM has its fair share of issues as well, I’ve been pretty fortunate with my Camaro’s and Silverado’s for the most part they have been trouble free.




First pic 18 5.0. 330 miles

Second pic 17 5.0 900 miles

Third and fourth pic 14 5.0 45k miles

Fifth pic 17 5.0 13k miles

???

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by newmoon

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes I could afford one if I wanted but I prefer not to throw my money away again with the massive 1st year depreciation hit when buying new, been there done that. That being said I still prefer the looks and rawness of my Boss over either the new GT or SS, it may be a tick slower but I know the chances of me seeing my car multiple times a day are slim to none. I have seen two Boss mustangs in my area in the 5+ years they have been around.

Maybe in a couple years when these new 16-18s have dropped in value I might be interested in a used GT350 or ZL1 if the price is right, but in the meantime I will enjoy what I have.

I used to think along those lines as well. But these days I think differently. I've seen way too many people buy these cars new, beat the holy living crap outta them, and then ditch them. I have always been lucky enough to avoid those cars. But I would never want to take that chance again. Sure you lose money on depreciation. But that doesn't matter if you plan to keep the car permanently. The fact that you know everything about the car and everywhere it's been and everything that has been done to it makes buying it brand new worthwhile. I'll never buy a ZL1, Hellcat, Z06, or any of those cars used unless it is just going to be a toy to mod or something like an SS or GT...or if the car just has been out of production for a while like the GT500. I would by a 13-14 for sure.

[ULTRAZLS1]

Originally Posted by newmoon

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes I could afford one if I wanted but I prefer not to throw my money away again with the massive 1st year depreciation hit when buying new, been there done that. That being said I still prefer the looks and rawness of my Boss over either the new GT or SS, it may be a tick slower but I know the chances of me seeing my car multiple times a day are slim to none. I have seen two Boss mustangs in my area in the 5+ years they have been around.

Maybe in a couple years when these new 16-18s have dropped in value I might be interested in a used GT350 or ZL1 if the price is right, but in the meantime I will enjoy what I have.

The Boss is a cool car. If I were into mustangs I wouldn't get anything newer as far as GT goes over it. Have you ever taken it to the strip?

I actually got my 16 SS new for less than they were going for used at the time. 30k. 25% off. Couldn't pass it up.

Surprised to hear about the seeing your car comment. Mustang fans typically talk sales constantly and want to see them on every corner. Part of the appeal of my SS to me is that I don't see them all the time. I don't care about sales as long as its enough to keep in production

[jmackisback]

Originally Posted by chrisx66

I work on them, these are just a few I’ve worked on. I have to take photos and send them to Ford for prior approval. I have plenty more if you’d like to see them. Ford has a lot of valve issues especially the last 5 years. I’m sure GM has its fair share of issues as well, I’ve been pretty fortunate with my Camaro’s and Silverado’s for the most part they have been trouble free.




First pic 18 5.0. 330 miles

Second pic 17 5.0 900 miles

Third and fourth pic 14 5.0 45k miles

Fifth pic 17 5.0 13k miles

Probably one of the best ownage posts in a very long time!

[oldman]

Originally Posted by ST1LE

You and I are on the same page 100%. While not a Mustang or Camaro, I feel the same about my M3. The latest and greatest isn't always that great. New M's are completely soul-less in comparison to the feel I get driving a hydraulic steering car with a high revving, naturally aspirated V8 .

I do crave a manual, and like you in 2-3 years I will be looking to add another pony car to the stable, and will be looking at used GT350's and ZL1's. I have a love hate with the GT350. Love the engine, but am afraid to own one out of warranty. Going to pay close attention to longevity over the next few years and see how it shakes out. If that is not a viable option, having another torque monster in the garage next to the M would be real nice, and the ZL1 would fit that bill beautifully.

amen I have a1998 Integra Type R, I built with modern technology such as carbon fiber twin cone synchro. When is the last time Type R was seen at the tracks and can perform.

[oldman]

Originally Posted by Nabush

I don't deny the packaging advantage of OHV.

Thank god. A real design / engineering parameter. Dully recognized.

Originally Posted by Nabush

But like I said, with the same displacement DOHC is more powerful.

We came so far in baby steps, only to fall off the wagon. I love playing false parameters. The LT1 makes 400% more HP per cam, The LT1 makes 100% more HP per valve, the LT1 makes 400% more HP per cam gear. Wow fake calculated parameters are so fun. I glad we can all play. Want to play more? The lt1 makes 100% more HP per valve retainer, 100% more HP per valve. Please

Originally Posted by Nabush

Mercedes was doing a 6.2 V8 Liters DOHC without problem...BMW is / was doing 6.0 V12 DOHC

Amen and Ford has had a spark plug blowing issue since most of you were too young to drive. I mean really, you can't design a head that the plugs won't fly out of? Really?

Originally Posted by Nabush

By the way it's funny you talk about the weight advantages of the OHV (which I don't deny, though the more complicated heads add like what, 10 kg/21lbs ?) when you see how heavy the C7/Camaro are... Yes the Stang as much or more

http://www.aviation-history.com/engines/db605.htm
It is actually where the weight is. Top of engine = bad, bottom of engine = good. Smart thing to do would be flip the V upside down kind of like a ME 109.

Originally Posted by Nabush

With OHV even with variable valve timing you can't dissociate intake of exhaust because of the single cam vs the 2 cams per bank on DOHC.

Really then I guess this does not exist?
https://www.mechadyne-int.com/products/duocam/

I wonder what under that big Viper hood, must be a DOHC then?

Originally Posted by Nabush

Same for variable lifting. So you have less adjustability.

I'm probably have the most VTEC experience here, let me see this Ford cam over bucket 4 valve design do variable lift You want variable lift? All LT1 can completely shut off 4 cylinders... Nada lift.

Originally Posted by Nabush

Don't speak to me about longevity, LS / LT motors are more prone to failure than Ford engines, no valve dropping issues on the Coyote...

From a company that can't keep the spark plugs in the head since the early 90s... um yea right.

Originally Posted by Nabush

I'm putting LT headers, CAI and MSD Intake on my 17 GS, and since I lose my warranty I'm freaking out and need to change my Valve springs by better one not to risk a broken engine because of this flaw. Valve dropping is notorious on OHV engines, almost inexistent in DOHC....

I race DOHC motors, are you kidding me? A high lift DOHC engine is very finicky to valve spring and wear. These engines need to have their springs and titanium retainers thrown away every 20K or else. I've floated OHV valve engines 100 if not 1000 of times. Try that on a 9600 RPM DOHC and let me know what happens a millisecond later. Look, the engines I build I have to worry about connecting rod stretch bringing the piston into contact with valves that are NOT floating.

Originally Posted by Nabush

If you go in the modding direction FORD warranties Superchargers on the Coyote... and supercharged Coyote make ton of power....Where is the warranty on LT1 superchargers ?

Last time I checked I can buy a supercharged LT engine with bumper to bumper and even extended warranty. But I'm game, the oldlady wants to go back to racing and an A10 GT is reasonable for me. Please post a link to this Ford warranty bumper to bumper ton of power engine. Heck I might roll one tomorrow.

Originally Posted by Nabush

And did you see Dyno charts of the new Coyote ? It makes 400 WHP+ from 5500 to 7400 rpm.... Where the LT1 peaks for few hundred of rpm.... Sorry but there is a wider power band on the Coyote than on the LT1....It requires to be higher in the rpm yes...

Looks like a child drew this chart what is this in SAE, STP, pure fiction? Are you going to pretend the 460 HP certified HP that the 5.0 puts out is more than the 526 certified HP the Voodoo puts out? Clearly not. We all know how the 5.2 compared to the older OHV LS engine right? This is the REAL SAE certification standard:
http://www.sae.org/certifiedpower/details.htm

Not some crayon dyno with no listing of what the HP means, you do know that a unicorn is a horse right?

http://fordauthority.com/wp-content/...-dyno-plot.jpg

Please read the whole article carefully. Also understand that the LS7 is a SAE certified engine and the dyno racers in the article can't figure out why their chassis dyno can't replicate the certified HP yielding to all kinds of head scratching. My take away is that pretty old fashion 15% drivetrain loss is probably less that 15% (especially FWD with engine trans axle rotation in same direction). Two and I would love to see test but I would speculate and the chassis dyno bares this out that drivetrain loss is more RPM related than torque related. IE putting 400 ft lbs thru a manual gear box and diff then upping it 50% to 600 ft lbs, friction loss is NOT as great as putting 6000 RPM thru same box and upping it to 9000 RPM. Cleary centripetal inertia is RPM related not torque related. I would be happy to enter into drivetrain friction discussion in the transmission section. Yet people try to apply the same 15% rule. The 5.2 puts out more engine HP, yet generated nearly the same wheel HP in the dyno run. I'm not surprised by the lighter 350R wheel showing up as more HP to the dyno. I'd bet if there was a wheel swap between the two Mustangs, the plain jane 350 would show more HP.

http://www.motortrend.com/news/dyno-...nd-camaro-z28/


Please I don't want to confuse power band which is obviose in the above chart with " ider power band on the Coyote than on the LT1....It requires to be higher in the rpm yes.." Power band is the area under the applied curve and it is all OHV baby.

Originally Posted by Nabush

Here is a dyno chart, sadly the governor hit at 6800 rpm, with governor removed the power goes up a little at 7000 and then stays around 400+ at 7400

All from a guy that is worried about some bolt ons failing his springs.. The engine is certified at 460 HP period, the lt1 3 years older is at 455 in the Camaro. Granted that the new A10 will allow a peaky engine to apply more of that HP under the curve to the ground. My take is at least 1/2 to all of this engine talk is attributed to the A10. Wait till the A10 comes behind a cam in cam 500 HP LT1 then what?

Originally Posted by Nabush

I won't say the LT1 is a bad engine, well I have one, and it seems it gets well with mods, but Man DOHC engines are significantly more fun in the High rpm range... And it's a more efficient design used all around the world... USA is the last market to use them and it won't last long...

The only true measure of efficiency when it comes to muscle car engines is HP per package volume. Which looking at the dyno I posted clearly shows which engine is FAR more "efficient". Let me know when a DOHC shows up at top fuel.... LOL

[newmoon]

Originally Posted by ULTRAZLS1

The Boss is a cool car. If I were into mustangs I wouldn't get anything newer as far as GT goes over it. Have you ever taken it to the strip?

I actually got my 16 SS new for less than they were going for used at the time. 30k. 25% off. Couldn't pass it up.

Surprised to hear about the seeing your car comment. Mustang fans typically talk sales constantly and want to see them on every corner. Part of the appeal of my SS to me is that I don't see them all the time. I don't care about sales as long as its enough to keep in production

30K was a great price on your 16, the 20-25% discount would be the only way to go. While I am impressed by the performance of the 18 GT especially over what the 15-17 GT were doing I still prefer my Boss over it in looks and fun factor, the right price GT350 might get me out of the Boss, but not a standard GT.

Haven't been to the dragstrip with the car yet, but maybe this Spring.

[FastCarFanBoy]

Originally Posted by chrisx66

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nabush

Don't speak to me about longevity, LS / LT motors are more prone to failure than Ford engines, no valve dropping issues on the Coyote...

I'm putting LT headers, CAI and MSD Intake on my 17 GS, and since I lose my warranty I'm freaking out and need to change my Valve springs by better one not to risk a broken engine because of this flaw. Valve dropping is notorious on OHV engines, almost inexistent in DOHC....






I work on them, these are just a few I’ve worked on. I have to take photos and send them to Ford for prior approval. I have plenty more if you’d like to see them. Ford has a lot of valve issues especially the last 5 years. I’m sure GM has its fair share of issues as well, I’ve been pretty fortunate with my Camaro’s and Silverado’s for the most part they have been trouble free.




First pic 18 5.0. 330 miles

Second pic 17 5.0 900 miles

Third and fourth pic 14 5.0 45k miles

Fifth pic 17 5.0 13k miles

quick look at those pictures...

Picture 2, That piston is twisted in the bore indicating the piston probably hit the valves rather than the valves dropping.

3 and 4 show an absurd amount of corrosion and deposits. certainly not a well maintained motor. could easily have been detonation that caused the valve to fracture.

the Coyote has had its faults over the years , but I have never heard of valve issues.