[SuperSound]

Originally Posted by ULTRAZLS1

The GT gains weight from PP. Larger brakes. The 2ss weight gain is kind of minor it just electronics/options. The biggest weight gain would be if either car has a sunroof.

Either way. It s roughly 100lbs. Not anywhere near 200

Originally Posted by vtirocz

That SS in the C&D test did have a sunroof. I think that's the heaviest possible configuration that they tested (2SS, auto, sunroof, MRC).

Indeed it did:
https://www.caranddriver.com/photo-g...est-gallery#18

I know I said the weight difference between a 1SS and non-Premium GT PP1 is almost 200lbs. Almost being the keyword. It was already 153lbs difference in the MT comparison. But I think that Mustang might have been a Premium. I do not expect the GT has lost any weight since then. But for the upcoming H2H the weights will be much closer anyway since it's a 1LE this time.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by Chadicus

So next week in the H2H with MT are we going to need to put you on suicide watch when the GT runs 12.7 at 114?

I think SS Friendly is STILL on suicide watch after the Edmunds H2H.

Originally Posted by metros11

That's an interesting take. I present to you the argument, one of the few C4 Corvettes people actually want, and also the fastest C4 built from the factory:

When the only example that you think will support your argument is from over 20 years ago, costed twice as much as the standard Vette, and still got matched by the Viper which had an OHV engine.

[Nabush]

Originally Posted by oldman

This is where your thought process went off the rails. Barring any external rules, taxes etc, a OHV V8 will always have substantially more displacement in similar size and weight package. The OHV motor will be more bottom heavy (a good thing). The fact that a DOHC V8 has substantially less displacement per package is the reason the Mustang has been stomped on since the 4.6 GT unveiled in the 90s. A Lt1 can do 7 liters no problem and the Ford, well with BIG dollars into it can do 5.2. The LT1 is smaller and lighter.

I don't deny the packaging advantage of OHV. But like I said, with the same displacement DOHC is more powerful. Mercedes was doing a 6.2 V8 Liters DOHC without problem...BMW is / was doing 6.0 V12 DOHC

By the way it's funny you talk about the weight advantages of the OHV (which I don't deny, though the more complicated heads add like what, 10 kg/21lbs ?) when you see how heavy the C7/Camaro are... Yes the Stang as much or more

Originally Posted by oldman

In what power per displacement is not a designed parameter. Power per weight, power per external engine size, power per MPG, power per drivable torque, power per actual cost of manufacture, power to longevity. The canard of power per displacment is just that a strawman agument. My last B20 VTEC engine put out 275 engine HP from 2 liters. I've done K20 that do 300 complete drivable HP, 600 RPM idle engines, are they faster than a LT1? Nope. Why cause HP per CID is MEANINGLESS. HP and Torque per engine that fits in the engine bay is what wins races.

With the cam in cam technology, overlapped can now be adjusted on OHV and you can take a look at the HUGE jump in HP as implemented in the Viper. That is a single phaser and one cam vs upto 4 phasers and 4 cams.

Move more air are you kidding me. Why does the LT1 have WAY WAY WAY WAY WAY more and torque and flatter torque? Cause a BIG cylinder moves more air than any silly 4 valve design.

With OHV even with variable valve timing you can't dissociate intake of exhaust because of the single cam vs the 2 cams per bank on DOHC. Same for variable lifting. So you have less adjustability.

Don't speak to me about longevity, LS / LT motors are more prone to failure than Ford engines, no valve dropping issues on the Coyote...

I'm putting LT headers, CAI and MSD Intake on my 17 GS, and since I lose my warranty I'm freaking out and need to change my Valve springs by better one not to risk a broken engine because of this flaw. Valve dropping is notorious on OHV engines, almost inexistent in DOHC....

Originally Posted by oldman

Lets play a little Gendanken Experiment: NA street HP: Ford it would be hard to get past the 5.2 Shelby at 526 HP, say the best you could do with aftermarket stuff is 570 HP, 440 ft-lbs. For the LT1 you can do a 427 running Victor heads and a big cam: 570 HP but 540 ft -lbs of completely flat torque. NOWHERE in the entire 5.2 performance envelope will it ever maker more torque than the stroker LT1 will make as a MINIMUM over its rev range. It is power under the curve that moves a car.

http://image.superchevy.com/f/120187...comparison.jpg

Ford has had so so so many redesigns of the original mod motor, and finally after dual inject design number dunno 10? They have an engine that makes the same HP as a OHV engine; however it has WAY less usable torque. Great. GM could implement cam in cam technology yesterday and bring the LT1 to 500 HP and an even flatter torque curve. What is Ford's reply? Nothing as it is already a spray bar engine, dual inject, dual runner intake. yada yada. To my mind it really is the 10 speed auto not the fancy redesign of the engine that makes the Mustang a better car. Next year say GM does cam in cam and a 10 speed auto. What does Ford do then? NOTHING. LOL

If you go in the modding direction FORD warranties Superchargers on the Coyote... and supercharged Coyote make ton of power....Where is the warranty on LT1 superchargers ?

And did you see Dyno charts of the new Coyote ? It makes 400 WHP+ from 5500 to 7400 rpm.... Where the LT1 peaks for few hundred of rpm.... Sorry but there is a wider power band on the Coyote than on the LT1....It requires to be higher in the rpm yes...

Here is a dyno chart, sadly the governor hit at 6800 rpm, with governor removed the power goes up a little at 7000 and then stays around 400+ at 7400




I won't say the LT1 is a bad engine, well I have one, and it seems it gets well with mods, but Man DOHC engines are significantly more fun in the High rpm range... And it's a more efficient design used all around the world... USA is the last market to use them and it won't last long...

[Mr. Wyndham]

I remember reading an article last year about LeMans...

And how the other teams were b!tching and moaning to the BoP people that the Corvette gets to use an OHV engine, putting the weight of the engine (which is less to begin with) even lower and denser thanks to the smaller heads and cam-in-block.

Just a thought.

[metros11]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

When the only example that you think will support your argument is from over 20 years ago, costed twice as much as the standard Vette, and still got matched by the Viper which had an OHV engine.

It's not 'the' only example, it's an example, provided for the sake of argument. Primarily to show that it could be done, and when done properly DOHC most certainly has it's advantages. There's no reason to poopoo on DOHC or OHV, I've stated it in other responses, each has their own pluses and minuses. It seems some peeps are choosing camps for the sake of argument, and then throwing out some bullshit phrases like 'truck motor', 'athletic' and 'posers', when in reality all of that is plain absurd.

[ChevyRules]

I just can't stand the OHV vs DOHC argument. It's just a circle of the same arguments. Both the LT1 and Coyote are good engines. Both deliver their power differently, they both have unique personalities, etc.

But yes the days of the OHV Small Block V8 is numbered and not likely to survive beyond 2025 or so( the trucks will probably be the last ones to have an OHV Small Block). And that is being driven by fuel economy and emission regulations.

[SuperSound]

Originally Posted by Nabush

I don't deny the packaging advantage of OHV. But like I said, with the same displacement DOHC is more powerful. Mercedes was doing a 6.2 V8 Liters DOHC without problem...BMW is / was doing 6.0 V12 DOHC

keyword was..they don't make large displacement engines anymore due to regulations/taxes. Those cars also cost 2 or 3 times a C7 in most cases. That's a lot of money just to stay NA at those power levels. Now all of them have fully embraced FI.

By the way it's funny you talk about the weight advantages of the OHV (which I don't deny, though the more complicated heads add like what, 10 kg/21lbs ?) when you see how heavy the C7/Camaro are... Yes the Stang as much or more

They also don't cost as much thanks to not using exotic materials to cut weight. Even still the M4 is only around 100lbs lighter just as an example, yet has it's hands full with even a base SS...which costs significantly less


If you go in the modding direction FORD warranties Superchargers on the Coyote... and supercharged Coyote make ton of power....Where is the warranty on LT1 superchargers ?

Read the fine print. That's a 1 yr 12K mile warranty if I remember. Only applicable if you paid Ford the money to install it before the car is 2 years old or 24K miles. So what you have done is paid for a warranty against a crappy service tech install. B/c I doubt any S/C install done correctly will have problems within a year. It's only real value is not voiding your new vehicle warranty outright. But any damage caused by the S/C is not covered by your new vehicle warranty either. Is it worth it to someone, maybe. But it isn't exactly a full warranty period either.

See replies in red

[Fraxum]

Originally Posted by Nabush

Here is a dyno chart, sadly the governor hit at 6800 rpm, with governor removed the power goes up a little at 7000 and then stays around 400+ at 7400

Hmm, I may not be up on the new GT Coyote, but I though the new redline was 7,500.

[newmoon]

Originally Posted by ULTRAZLS1

Im still waiting for a sound argument from you.

I'll even throw you a bone. Show me where one of the better known Camaro Shops has run a bone stock Camaro faster than the 12:20s. We have below from the GT

LMR - 12:02 117-mph
Lund Racing - 12:00 118-mph
Lethal - 12:20s (matches the reviewed time for the SS)
Steeda - 12:20s (matches the reviewed time for the SS, while running in DA of
1350 and on 235 all season radials.)

[Zeke.Malvo]

Originally Posted by Fraxum

Hmm, I may not be up on the new GT Coyote, but I though the new redline was 7,500.

6800 rpm is the governor @ 155 mph... the lower gears can rev out to 7400 though.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by newmoon

I'll even throw you a bone. Show me where one of the better known Camaro Shops has run a bone stock Camaro faster than the 12:20s. We have below from the GT

LMR - 12:02 117-mph
Lund Racing - 12:00 118-mph
Lethal - 12:20s (matches the reviewed time for the SS)
Steeda - 12:20s (matches the reviewed time for the SS, while running in DA of
1350 and on 235 all season radials.)

What are you expecting to prove? The GT is still slower. There is more than an abundance of information out there to confirm this. So what are you getting at?

[Chadicus]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

What are you expecting to prove. The GT is still slower. There is more than an abundance of information out there to confirm this. So what are you getting at?

He isn't getting at anything. He drives an S197 because he can't afford the 50k to get an 18 GT so he is trolling the forums to feel better about it. I don't understand why people are still talking about the 18 Mustang.

[ST1LE]

Originally Posted by Chadicus

He isn't getting at anything. He drives an S197 because he can't afford the 50k to get an 18 GT so he is trolling the forums to feel better about it. I don't understand why people are still talking about the 18 Mustang.

I bet he could afford one if he wanted, but just like us he knows the GT is not worth $50K.

The S550 is not faster than what he drives, so why switch? Not exactly an upgrade.

[FastCarFanBoy]

Originally Posted by ST1LE

I bet he could afford one if he wanted, but just like us he knows the GT is not worth $50K.

The S550 is not faster than what he drives, so why switch? Not exactly an upgrade.

You have to understand the mentality of the "keep it stock because warranty crowd". They have to buy the new model every time one drops or they no longer have the bragging rights of the best stock performance available.

I should sell my paid off car to run out and buy an '18 that is 2 seconds slower for the convenience of some tech features I will never use and a $350 monthly note.