[oldman]

Originally Posted by Mazman

Hi

this is where the new 10-speed comes into play if accelerations is the main priority at least for the 5.0. With the close gear ratios, the RPM during shifting is held above 6000RPM when on full throttle. It would be interesting to see how a 10-speed and the 6.2(N/A) work together as this engine I am assuming is not as hungry for more gears compared to the 5.0.

Depending on track(circuit) and driving style I would assume the two engine/transmission combos have their pros and cons.

Still I think it is great that we are able to have these cars, I understand that there can be arguments(wild ones) but still it is a great era with a lot of amazing cars. For me I buy whatever I can afford and what I can think I can live with. For us as consumers competition is great and in some parts of the world it is getting more and more difficult to have these type of cars. We should enjoy what we have while it lasts.

Regarding the test I think MT will say the SS is still king on track compared to the PP1 at least and that the Mustang is easier to live with but that it is well improved for tracking with introducing the magneride, tires, (potentially the A10) and the new engine with a bit more torque and HP. I think as a surprise they also will test the PP1 with the same tires the the PP2 comes with . In the end it is what makes you happy regardless of numbers. Some buy an Aston Martin for the same money as a Ferrari and might not this time around be after the ultimate driving car but after the feeling it gives them. I have said it before looking at the Mustang and SS if being daily driven I think they perform well enough for 95% of the people buying them.

A DOHC engine has a peaky power band, so the MORE gear the better as the RPM drop between the gears will be less = more area under the curve. Still I would think there would be some gain for the A10 in back of a LT1. My bet is not the trans, it is GM putting cam in cam technology into the LT1 and getting a cool 500 HP NA... back to Ford.

[Nabush]

Originally Posted by oldman

A DOHC engine has a peaky power band, so the MORE gear the better as the RPM drop between the gears will be less = more area under the curve. Still I would think there would be some gain for the A10 in back of a LT1. My bet is not the trans, it is GM putting cam in cam technology into the LT1 and getting a cool 500 HP NA... back to Ford.

A DOHC has not a peaky power....

with the same displacement a DOHC engine will have both more torque and more power. It's just a more efficient design, you have more adjustability for your cam timing, you can flow more air because you have 4 valves per cylinder...

Mercedes was making an NA 6.2 M159 engine in the SLS almost 10 year ago with 570hp and then 622 hp with the in the Black series, and 480 lbft...

OHV is old technology not matter what people say, but i agree it has some advantages...but power and torque are not among them. They only make torque because of displacement.

[Bhobbs]

DOHC is not new technology.

[metros11]

Originally Posted by oldman

At some point a DOHC inline 5 or 6 is all that you will ever need, look at the Ford GT, the new Audi inline 5, high 11s in a 4 door. The Boxter has gone down to an opposed 4, the handwriting on the wall is DOHC, I just highly doubt it will be a V8 configuration. Inline DOHC have half the cams, half the heads, half all the timing belt stuff out front.

Remember all the rumors with the Cuda having a Pentastar V6 twin turbo.

Technically speaking nobody NEEDS a V8. As long as there's a demand for a V8, it will survive.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by Nabush

with the same displacement a DOHC engine will have both more torque and more power. It's just a more efficient design, you have more adjustability for your cam timing, you can flow more air because you have 4 valves per cylinder...

But for every advantage there comes a disadvantage. Sure a DOHC engine with the same displacement could possibly have more hp and tq. But, you can get much more displacement out of a OHV engine despite having far less physical size. There are some big block engines that are physically smaller than the Coyote engine. Now can a Coyote engine make anywhere even close to the power and tq of a big block? No. It can't.

All this talk about engines and high revving DOHCs and such...yet the Mustang is still the slowest of the 3 Muscle Cars by far. Both in a straight line and on a track. And that is even after a massive upgrade done to it, lol!! High revving DOHC engines are for posers who want to FEEL like they're going fast. Pushrod engines that make gobs of torque down low and then carry hp/tq thru it's entire band are for when you actually wanna GO fast.

[ULTRAZLS1]

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

DOHC is not new technology.

I think pushrod is actually slightly newer design or very close cant recall. Neither of them are new at all. About the same age

[vtirocz]

About 1 more week until the MT Head2Head goes live (on Jan 17).

I wonder if MT will do an First Test Review on the Mustang GT sooner just like they did for the Camaro?

[metros11]

Originally Posted by Nabush

A DOHC has not a peaky power....

with the same displacement a DOHC engine will have both more torque and more power. It's just a more efficient design, you have more adjustability for your cam timing, you can flow more air because you have 4 valves per cylinder...

Mercedes was making an NA 6.2 M159 engine in the SLS almost 10 year ago with 570hp and then 622 hp with the in the Black series, and 480 lbft...

OHV is old technology not matter what people say, but i agree it has some advantages...but power and torque are not among them. They only make torque because of displacement.

Absolutely correct, a properly built 6.2L DOHC would make way more power than a 6.2L OHV, if comparable technological tricks are used. However when it comes to overall vehicle performance, DOHC design on a V8 comes with it's own set of disadvantages. First being that it's more expensive to produce because there are far more moving parts. Second being that it's larger and heavier due to those extra parts. It's not exactly a secret that for the best driving experience and cornering you don't necessarily want all the weight up front, as that's what leads to understeer, not to mention the challenges of stuffing that motor into an engine bay. I can assure you that boring to 6.2L instead 5.0L displacement would almost certainly mean a short block redesign with bigger overall dimensions in the end. Otherwise Ford would likely have already gone that route. So there are many engineering challenges to overcome. A better place for that DOHC V8 would be in the mid/rear layout. And quite frankly this is exactly where GM is headed with the C8 Corvette, aka Zora.

Originally Posted by ULTRAZLS1

I think pushrod is actually slightly newer design or very close cant recall. Neither of them are new at all. About the same age

Neither is new, but OHV is the older design and SOHC or DOHC are technically more advanced. OHV is simpler, which also means it's far easier to maintain and modify. Granted, one can argue DOHC modifications will produce higher rewards. With that said, Chevy have perfected the OHV design over 60 years, it's their bread and butter and it's what they do and know well. Naysayers will argue that OHV is old and outdated, and yet GM is still taking podiums in their Chevrolets and Caddies stuffed with those old 'truck' motors. Bottom line, on the track those engines continue to prove themselves (and no, I'm not talking about NASCAR).

[JamesNoBrakes]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

All this talk about engines and high revving DOHCs and such...yet the Mustang is still the slowest of the 3 Muscle Cars by far.

You are going too far with that statement. Ford does have track-focused mustangs that are more of a complete package than the straight-line charger and challenger SRT/hellcat models. Ford is just not as aggressive at making them perform at the levels that Chevy is and seems to take a lot longer to come up with an answer for the next development/generation. But the GT350 is still miles ahead of a charger/challenger IMO. If you need to haul some buddies and want to impress them with your stop-light to stop-light times, get the 4-door or ample-rear room 2-door one-trick pony.

[Nabush]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

But for every advantage there comes a disadvantage. Sure a DOHC engine with the same displacement could possibly have more hp and tq. But, you can get much more displacement out of a OHV engine despite having far less physical size. There are some big block engines that are physically smaller than the Coyote engine. Now can a Coyote engine make anywhere even close to the power and tq of a big block? No. It can't.

All this talk about engines and high revving DOHCs and such...yet the Mustang is still the slowest of the 3 Muscle Cars by far. Both in a straight line and on a track. And that is even after a massive upgrade done to it, lol!! High revving DOHC engines are for posers who want to FEEL like they're going fast. Pushrod engines that make gobs of torque down low and then carry hp/tq thru it's entire band are for when you actually wanna GO fast.

Ok so all Europeans sport cars are for posers then ?

- GT3-RS/GT2 RS
- Mclaren 540/570/720
- Ferrari 812/488
- LP610/750 Performante

Etc etc all of them with DOHC engines...

Dodges are only fast on straight line...Put a Hellcat on a roadcourse, it is very funny...

Edit : forgot the Viper my bad...the only driveable at the limit though is the ACR...the other ones want to kill you all the time...

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes

You are going too far with that statement. Ford does have track-focused mustangs that are more of a complete package than the straight-line charger and challenger SRT/hellcat models. Ford is just not as aggressive at making them perform at the levels that Chevy is and seems to take a lot longer to come up with an answer for the next development/generation. But the GT350 is still miles ahead of a charger/challenger IMO. If you need to haul some buddies and want to impress them with your stop-light to stop-light times, get the 4-door or ample-rear room 2-door one-trick pony.

Well the GT350(R) is a one-trick pony as well. All it can do is corner. And even that isn't enough for the R to beat the ZL1.

My statement isn't going too far. GM has the likes of the GS Vette, Z06, and ZL1 which are all in the GT350R's price range yet offer more options and beat the R everywhere. Dodge has/had the Viper which is/was in the same league although slightly more expensive (before markups)...but with markups it is/was in the same range. And the Viper destroys the R. Taking a step back and looking at the HC it destroys the R in a straight line by a lot although the R will beat the HC on a track by a lot. Again, they're both one-trick ponys. But HCs come standard with way more options than the R.

So for what it's worth, both GM and FCA have been kicking ass for a long time with the pushrod design. Even now the GT is still behind. All the excuses in the world doesn't take away from the fact that Ford is making the least impressive Muscle Cars right now. So I sure am not seeing how these DOHC engines are the cat's meow when they keep getting their asses kicked.

[JamesNoBrakes]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Well the GT350(R) is a one-trick pony as well. All it can do is corner. And even that isn't enough for the R to beat the ZL1.

My statement isn't going too far. GM has ....

Sure it was going to far, you said the Mustang was the slowest out of all 3. It's not, Ford actually does have some track-worthiness, vs. Dodge, which is just about straight line (effectively, it can never compete on the track at that weight and with that handling).

[Nabush]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Well the GT350(R) is a one-trick pony as well. All it can do is corner. And even that isn't enough for the R to beat the ZL1.

My statement isn't going too far. GM has the likes of the GS Vette, Z06, and ZL1 which are all in the GT350R's price range yet offer more options and beat the R everywhere. Dodge has/had the Viper which is/was in the same league although slightly more expensive (before markups)...but with markups it is/was in the same range. And the Viper destroys the R. Taking a step back and looking at the HC it destroys the R in a straight line by a lot although the R will beat the HC on a track by a lot. Again, they're both one-trick ponys. But HCs come standard with way more options than the R.

So for what it's worth, both GM and FCA have been kicking ass for a long time with the pushrod design. Even now the GT is still behind. All the excuses in the world doesn't take away from the fact that Ford is making the least impressive Muscle Cars right now. So I sure am not seeing how these DOHC engines are the cat's meow when they keep getting their asses kicked.

The thing is the Mustang is an in between the Camaro and the Challenger.

It performs as well as the Camaro/challenger in straight line (for the 2018 model), is slower on a roadcourse than the Camaro but faster than the challenger, but sufficiently fast and composed to give fun on a mountain road at a fast pace.

It’s more liveable as a daily than the camaro (don’t know for the challenger)

That’s why Mustang sells well, performance is good, accessible and sufficient for most people.

By the way How many of you go to the limit of your cars ?

For you living in NJ which roads do you have to touch/approach the limits of your ZL1 ?

I live myself of the bottom of the 15miles/6000 ft elevation Hillclimb where i can do it (And i track on roadcourses, was living near Le Mans and other famous French roadcourses where i raced, now i need to go farther ...) but i’m very lucky to have such roads....not the case for most of you eastern guys...on straight roads telling the difference is not very relevant no ?

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by Nabush

Ok so all Europeans sport cars are for posers then ?

- GT3-RS/GT2 RS
- Mclaren 540/570/720
- Ferrari 812/488
- LP610/750 Performante

Etc etc all of them with DOHC engines...

Dodges are only fast on straight line...Put a Hellcat on a roadcourse, it is very funny...

Yea and it's funny when all the cars with DOHC engines that are actually good cost well over $150K. And they compete with what, our $63K ZL1 and $70K ZL1 1LE and $70K-ish Z06? Even the ZR1 won't cost as much as those cars and it'll give them hell if not outright beat them. The HC is a straight line car but guess what...that is what it is built for. Dodge already built a car that can do the quarter mile AND track...it's called the Viper. And even it is way cheaper than those cars. And it's got what? Oh, a pushrod engine. Which DOHC engine in a car in the same price range has any work for the ZL1 or Z06?