[whiteboyblues2001]

Originally Posted by Poppacapp

The new GT500 will have the A10(it is a Ford patented transmission afterall, albeit GM and Ford cooperated in developement with for leading the engineering). There are also rumors of AWD as splined front axles have been spotted on supposed test mules. 750+ hp with the rumored 5.2l motor and the TVS 2.65 on it with A10 and AWD? Might surprise some people. Again the are currently rumors. I believe Ford will introduce the GT500 on the new S650 chassis.

The latest rumors on the GT500 is that it will have a DCT, not the A10. No AWD, and it will NOT be on the S650 chassis, since the test mules are already running around, and the S650 "clean-slate" program just got cancelled. Meaning, the S650 has been pushed back at least two years, and will probably be a re-worked S550, rather than a "clean-slate".

My guess is that the GT500 will have around 750HP, so it won't have bragging rights on the Demon, and since it will still be on the S550 platform, it won't out handle the ZL1 in terms of driver feel and feedback, and it won't outperform the ZL1 1LE in terms of track times.

Maybe they will give it 760HP, so they can claim more HP than the ZR1. There's always that...

[Chadicus]

Originally Posted by germanicus

You contradict yourself in your own response. As you know, we have already seen an 18 auto with an e85 and tires put out those numbers. Lund did just that. 11.31 @ 124mph. Faster than all but 2 of your stock zl1 auto fast list entries. Faster than several FBO Zl1 auto fast list entries.

Cognitive Dissonance is a bit strong here.

12.6? There have been numerous sub 12 stock runs. Hell, a total newbie ran a 12.1 on video. You don't get to pick opposite ends of the respective bell curves for your comparisons. Its disingenuous and for all your dispositive assertions otherwise, smells of panic.

To quote the bard, "the lady doth protest too much, methinks"

You are aware that Car and Driver conducts tests using as close of a controlled environment as possible for every single car and times are corrected for atmospheric pressure and 60 degrees. In that same environment the SS is faster. Period. Stock SS's have run 11.8s as well. No one is claming that to be the norm.

We have seen ZL1s in the high 10s in mineshaft air. Just stop with the Lund tune and tires bullshit. Please. No one over here gives a damn what Lund's car did or supposedly did. Post that shit on the Mustang forums where it belongs.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by germanicus

You contradict yourself in your own response. As you know, we have already seen an 18 auto with an e85 and tires put out those numbers. Lund did just that. 11.31 @ 124mph. Faster than all but 2 of your stock zl1 auto fast list entries. Faster than several FBO Zl1 auto fast list entries.

I said same day same track dude. SAME DAY. SAME TRACK. How many times do I have to repeat myself to you Mustang guys? It's like you guys literally read only what you want to read. You take that GT, throw those mods on it, put it on the same track as a ZL1 in the Spring, Summer, whenever, and with equal drivers it will not beat a ZL1. You can't sit here cherry picking the results you want. You guys just sat here talking about the fact that DA plays a huge part. SO put that GT out here in NJ in the Summer on the same track as me. Do you really think it'll do an 11.3 in 80-90 degree temps? Because my ZL1 will def do an 11 with little to no effort.

Originally Posted by germanicus

12.6? There have been numerous sub 12 stock runs. Hell, a total newbie ran a 12.1 on video. You don't get to pick opposite ends of the respective bell curves for your comparisons. Its disingenuous and for all your dispositive assertions otherwise, smells of panic.

And yet again, for the hundredth time I have to explain. AS TESTED BY AN INDEPENDENT THIRD PARTY UNBIASED SOURCE. There are plenty of SS that have gone in the 11s. Is that the official time? No. 12.3-12.6 is the official time. There are A10 ZL1s that have gone High 10s and M6 ZL1s that have gone low 11s. Is that the official time we use? No. We use 11.4 for the auto and 11.7-11.8 for the manual. What about any of this do you Mustang guys find soo confusing and why do we have to explain it to you guys over and over again?

[germanicus]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

I said same day same track dude. SAME DAY. SAME TRACK. How many times do I have to repeat myself to you Mustang guys? It's like you guys literally read only what you want to read. You take that GT, throw those mods on it, put it on the same track as a ZL1 in the Spring, Summer, whenever, and with equal drivers it will not beat a ZL1. You can't sit here cherry picking the results you want. You guys just sat here talking about the fact that DA plays a huge part. SO put that GT out here in NJ in the Summer on the same track as me. Do you really think it'll do an 11.3 in 80-90 degree temps? Because my ZL1 will def do an 11 with little to no effort.

And yet again, for the hundredth time I have to explain. AS TESTED BY AN INDEPENDENT THIRD PARTY UNBIASED SOURCE. There are plenty of SS that have gone in the 11s. Is that the official time? No. 12.3-12.6 is the official time. There are A10 ZL1s that have gone High 10s and M6 ZL1s that have gone low 11s. Is that the official time we use? No. We use 11.4 for the auto and 11.7-11.8 for the manual. What about any of this do you Mustang guys find soo confusing and why do we have to explain it to you guys over and over again?

Baloney, you don't get to pivot here. The hyerbole in your reply to Poppacap above is ridiculous. You weren't discussing magazine numbers. You were extrapolating a fundamentally flawed reasoning why a modded A10 could not run with a stock zl1. You are being evasive, ignoring blatantly apparent real world results, essentially doing more backflips than an olympic gymnast. Did you forget after 2 posts?

I think you realize how silly your statement is, as at the end of your paragraph you state "It is not going to beat a stock ZL1 unless it is FBO including a tire and/or boost/nitrous." The key is that "and/or" boost/nitrous. You realize the 11.31 was an e85 tune and tire. No boost/nitrous.

Lets break this down. If car A runs an 11.31 and car B runs a time GREATER than 11.31, would you agree that Car A is faster? Yes or no.

You clearly stated "No it won't" to the notion that a modded A10 could "run with a stock zl1".

Unless EVERY STOCK ZL1 runs faster than 11.31 in the same conditions, by the most basic comprehension, your supposition is flawed. Will every 18 GT A10 with mods do this? OF COURSE NOT. NO ONE CLAIMED THAT. Claiming that is silly and ludicrous, but your position is just as ludicrous as it has been clearly demonstrated that at least one GT with an e85 tune and tires has beaten ALL BUT 2 of your stock zl1 fast list times. Do you agree that 11.31 is faster than ALL BUT 2 of your stock zl1 fast list times? It's rather easy to verify. Yes or no. Its a few clicks away! Don't be afraid! Your car wont magically disappear if you look, I promise. Don't dodge this! If you want to claim "oh thats a magical hero run" or made up/fabricated fine, you can still sleep at night. But Yes or No, is 11.31 faster than all but 2 of the listed times ? If it is, than certainly a rational individual would agree that "A modded A10 could run with a stock zl1".

Not a difficult concept.
See that wasn't too traumatic!

No it won't.

Everyone knows that races are only run by comparing magazine numbers!

No rational mustang guys are claiming the stock 18gt auto is as fast as a stock zl1. How pathetic would that be - its down 190hp?

But how many mustang guys who goto tracks run their cars stock?
Do you with your zl1? Stock? Modded? Would your (modded) posted time be considered faster or slower than say.... lets randomly pick a number here.... 11.31?

ahhhhh, the hyperbole becomes a bit more clear now.

[ST1LE]

Originally Posted by germanicus

Baloney, you don't get to pivot here. The hyerbole in your reply to Poppacap above is ridiculous. You weren't discussing magazine numbers. You were extrapolating a fundamentally flawed reasoning why a modded A10 could not run with a stock zl1. You are being evasive, ignoring blatantly apparent real world results, essentially doing more backflips than an olympic gymnast. Did you forget after 2 posts?

I think you realize how silly your statement is, as at the end of your paragraph you state "It is not going to beat a stock ZL1 unless it is FBO including a tire and/or boost/nitrous." The key is that "and/or" boost/nitrous. You realize the 11.31 was an e85 tune and tire. No boost/nitrous.

Lets break this down. If car A runs an 11.31 and car B runs a time GREATER than 11.31, would you agree that Car A is faster? Yes or no.

You clearly stated "No it won't" to the notion that a modded A10 could "run with a stock zl1".

Unless EVERY STOCK ZL1 runs faster than 11.31 in the same conditions, by the most basic comprehension, your supposition is flawed. Will every 18 GT A10 with mods do this? OF COURSE NOT. NO ONE CLAIMED THAT. Claiming that is silly and ludicrous, but your position is just as ludicrous as it has been clearly demonstrated that at least one GT with an e85 tune and tires has beaten ALL BUT 2 of your stock zl1 fast list times. Do you agree that 11.31 is faster than ALL BUT 2 of your stock zl1 fast list times? It's rather easy to verify. Yes or no. Its a few clicks away! Don't be afraid! Your car wont magically disappear if you look, I promise. Don't dodge this! If you want to claim "oh thats a magical hero run" or made up/fabricated fine, you can still sleep at night. But Yes or No, is 11.31 faster than all but 2 of the listed times ? If it is, than certainly a rational individual would agree that "A modded A10 could run with a stock zl1".

Not a difficult concept.
See that wasn't too traumatic!



Everyone knows that races are only run by comparing magazine numbers!

No rational mustang guys are claiming the stock 18gt auto is as fast as a stock zl1. How pathetic would that be - its down 190hp?

But how many mustang guys who goto tracks run their cars stock?
Do you with your zl1? Stock? Modded? Would your (modded) posted time be considered faster or slower than say.... lets randomly pick a number here.... 11.31?

ahhhhh, the hyperbole becomes a bit more clear now.

WOW...that's some useless commentary there...bravo!

Does ANYBODY in here even own an '18 Mustang? No? Okay then.

[DevilsReject97]

Originally Posted by germanicus

You contradict yourself in your own response. As you know, we have already seen an 18 auto with an e85 and tires put out those numbers. Lund did just that. 11.31 @ 124mph. Faster than all but 2 of your stock zl1 auto fast list entries. Faster than several FBO Zl1 auto fast list entries.

Actually, Lund did that on a drag pak, not just "tires". The biggest gripe every single Mustang fan has had has been about the crappy tires on the car that comes stock. The minute you swap in some better tires, oh now we got a race.

Lund didn't run a stock car, and it took a drag pak, not just tires, to accomplish an 11.3 run.

Originally Posted by germanicus

12.6? There have been numerous sub 12 stock runs. Hell, a total newbie ran a 12.1 on video. You don't get to pick opposite ends of the respective bell curves for your comparisons. Its disingenuous and for all your dispositive assertions otherwise, smells of panic.

To quote the bard, "the lady doth protest too much, methinks"

We both know that both sides of the fence have run faster times with these cars, because we've all seen videos and so forth. The problem is, most of these videos are by QUALITY drivers. The average driver, isn't going to accomplish these times. Sure, some will make better than average runs, especially this time of year, but in the dead middle of drag racing season? Forget about it....and that's for both the Camaro and Mustang...

Additionally, let's not forget about one thing you keep overlooking. The ZL1 has some serious TM nanny issues that GM is currently looking into and most likely is going to have to correct. This could very easily result in even lower times out of the current ZL1's...

And, they already have a drag pak coming for the ZL1, where even that re-tune of the car will still be considered stock...

[germanicus]

Originally Posted by DevilsReject97

Actually, Lund did that on a drag pak, not just "tires". The biggest gripe every single Mustang fan has had has been about the crappy tires on the car that comes stock. The minute you swap in some better tires, oh now we got a race.

Lund didn't run a stock car, and it took a drag pak, not just tires, to accomplish an 11.3 run.




We both know that both sides of the fence have run faster times with these cars, because we've all seen videos and so forth. The problem is, most of these videos are by QUALITY drivers. The average driver, isn't going to accomplish these times. Sure, some will make better than average runs, especially this time of year, but in the dead middle of drag racing season? Forget about it....and that's for both the Camaro and Mustang...

Additionally, let's not forget about one thing you keep overlooking. The ZL1 has some serious TM nanny issues that GM is currently looking into and most likely is going to have to correct. This could very easily result in even lower times out of the current ZL1's...

And, they already have a drag pak coming for the ZL1, where even that re-tune of the car will still be considered stock...

All solid points.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by germanicus

Baloney, you don't get to pivot here. The hyerbole in your reply to Poppacap above is ridiculous. You weren't discussing magazine numbers. You were extrapolating a fundamentally flawed reasoning why a modded A10 could not run with a stock zl1. You are being evasive, ignoring blatantly apparent real world results, essentially doing more backflips than an olympic gymnast. Did you forget after 2 posts?

I think you realize how silly your statement is, as at the end of your paragraph you state "It is not going to beat a stock ZL1 unless it is FBO including a tire and/or boost/nitrous." The key is that "and/or" boost/nitrous. You realize the 11.31 was an e85 tune and tire. No boost/nitrous.

Lets break this down. If car A runs an 11.31 and car B runs a time GREATER than 11.31, would you agree that Car A is faster? Yes or no.

You clearly stated "No it won't" to the notion that a modded A10 could "run with a stock zl1".

Unless EVERY STOCK ZL1 runs faster than 11.31 in the same conditions, by the most basic comprehension, your supposition is flawed. Will every 18 GT A10 with mods do this? OF COURSE NOT. NO ONE CLAIMED THAT. Claiming that is silly and ludicrous, but your position is just as ludicrous as it has been clearly demonstrated that at least one GT with an e85 tune and tires has beaten ALL BUT 2 of your stock zl1 fast list times. Do you agree that 11.31 is faster than ALL BUT 2 of your stock zl1 fast list times? It's rather easy to verify. Yes or no. Its a few clicks away! Don't be afraid! Your car wont magically disappear if you look, I promise. Don't dodge this! If you want to claim "oh thats a magical hero run" or made up/fabricated fine, you can still sleep at night. But Yes or No, is 11.31 faster than all but 2 of the listed times ? If it is, than certainly a rational individual would agree that "A modded A10 could run with a stock zl1".

Not a difficult concept.
See that wasn't too traumatic!



Everyone knows that races are only run by comparing magazine numbers!

No rational mustang guys are claiming the stock 18gt auto is as fast as a stock zl1. How pathetic would that be - its down 190hp?

But how many mustang guys who goto tracks run their cars stock?
Do you with your zl1? Stock? Modded? Would your (modded) posted time be considered faster or slower than say.... lets randomly pick a number here.... 11.31?

ahhhhh, the hyperbole becomes a bit more clear now.

Let me explain it as simply as I can for you. Take a 2018 Mustang GT. Throw tires, tune, and exhaust on it. Bring it to the track. Put a stock A10 6th Gen ZL1 in the next lane. Put equal drivers in both cars. I am saying that the ZL1 will win hands down.

Now maybe you don't understand what "FBO" means. It means full bolt-ons. Meaning intake, headers, tune (including E85), exhaust, tire, maybe even IM and TB depending on your definition. A Mustang GT would need all of that and possibly boost/nitrous to beat a stock 6th Gen A10 ZL1 with an equal driver on the same day and at the same track.

Now if you would ever like to challenge that theory then I am here. I will return my car to stock except for the catback and you cab get an 18 GT with those mods and we can test this and I can all but assure you that you will lose in a grand fashion.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by germanicus

Baloney, you don't get to pivot here. The hyerbole in your reply to Poppacap above is ridiculous. You weren't discussing magazine numbers. You were extrapolating a fundamentally flawed reasoning why a modded A10 could not run with a stock zl1. You are being evasive, ignoring blatantly apparent real world results, essentially doing more backflips than an olympic gymnast. Did you forget after 2 posts?

Stop trying to use big words. You're just making yourself sound ridiculous.

Originally Posted by germanicus

I think you realize how silly your statement is, as at the end of your paragraph you state "It is not going to beat a stock ZL1 unless it is FBO including a tire and/or boost/nitrous." The key is that "and/or" boost/nitrous. You realize the 11.31 was an e85 tune and tire. No boost/nitrous.

Is that 11.31 faster than my best time? Sure it is. My best time is an 11.8. But there is much more to my run than just looking at the end result. And there is much more to the other runs. Now if anyone has the balls to look at me 11.8 and then look at the 11.3 of the 18 GT that you're fapping to, and think that they can beat me if they did those same mods, then I would welcome that person to come to my track and give it a shot. You're using this information in an attempt to either downplay the ZL1, boost up the GT, or mislead people into thinking that the GT with those mods is faster than a stock ZL1. SS Friendly tried that same argument. But the thing is that your argument is extremely cherry picked. And you're ignoring all the data from the runs you're talking about. Because when all the data is used it would prove you completely wrong and you know that for a fact. Again, if you ever have the balls to challenge me on this then by all means come out to my track and we can put this to rest. Now if you did full bolt-ons with boost, then it would be an interesting match. But with just those mods you're talking about you would not stand a chance.

Originally Posted by germanicus

You clearly stated "No it won't" to the notion that a modded A10 could "run with a stock zl1".

It won't. Unless you're talking about a M6 ZL1 with an average driver that bogs and if the GT has a pro driver. Against an A10 ZL1 it will not win at all.

Originally Posted by germanicus

Unless EVERY STOCK ZL1 runs faster than 11.31 in the same conditions, by the most basic comprehension, your supposition is flawed. Will every 18 GT A10 with mods do this? OF COURSE NOT. NO ONE CLAIMED THAT. Claiming that is silly and ludicrous, but your position is just as ludicrous as it has been clearly demonstrated that at least one GT with an e85 tune and tires has beaten ALL BUT 2 of your stock zl1 fast list times. Do you agree that 11.31 is faster than ALL BUT 2 of your stock zl1 fast list times? It's rather easy to verify. Yes or no. Its a few clicks away! Don't be afraid! Your car wont magically disappear if you look, I promise. Don't dodge this! If you want to claim "oh thats a magical hero run" or made up/fabricated fine, you can still sleep at night. But Yes or No, is 11.31 faster than all but 2 of the listed times ? If it is, than certainly a rational individual would agree that "A modded A10 could run with a stock zl1".

Again, taking the info that suits your argument because you know full well that if you take all the data into consideration you would be proven wrong. You can hang on to your 11.3 all you want. You can say that it is faster than my 11.8. Go right ahead. But would you be foolish enough to actually think you could beat me on a track?

Originally Posted by germanicus

Everyone knows that races are only run by comparing magazine numbers!

No rational mustang guys are claiming the stock 18gt auto is as fast as a stock zl1. How pathetic would that be - its down 190hp?

But how many mustang guys who goto tracks run their cars stock?
Do you with your zl1? Stock? Modded? Would your (modded) posted time be considered faster or slower than say.... lets randomly pick a number here.... 11.31?

ahhhhh, the hyperbole becomes a bit more clear now.

Again with the 11.31. So let me explain it to you again since that is the number you wanna cling to. If I did a max effort run in my A10 ZL1, then I absolutely believe I will do better than an 11.31. And I could do it up here in NJ in the Summer as opposed to doing it in the Winter.

So you comparing my 11.8 and all of our numbers done months ago when you don't even know how we drove our cars or if we were even trying to accomplish to someone who took an 18 GT with the sole effort to max it out and get the absolute best time and ran it to it's full potential is cherry picked as hell. But that is what you Mustang guys LOVE to do. I wasn't even trying when I went. I was there hanging out. The first night I went I didn't even pay to race. I paid to spectate and then had to walk all the way around to the front to pay the extra fee to race after my friends talked me into it. And I was not going to beat on my car. I did a 12.1 on my second run without even putting effort into it. My 11.8 came in like fashion. So if you think you can match me if I put effort into my runs then I would love to see you try.

[germanicus]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Is that 11.31 faster than my best time? Sure it is. My best time is an 11.8.

Gotcha, so a modded zl1 was half a second slower than Lund's best run.
How do you then parse your DEFINITIVE STATEMENT that a modded 18 GT cannot keep up with a stock ZL1. You can't, end of discussion.

You're using this information in an attempt to either downplay the ZL1, boost up the GT, or mislead people into thinking that the GT with those mods is faster than a stock ZL1.

None of the above. What is misleading about CAR A with MODS X and Y ran time Z? You are entitled to your opinion, but not your own facts.

But the thing is that your argument is extremely cherry picked. And you're ignoring all the data from the runs you're talking about.

Pot meet Kettle. What data is being ignored? Was the track on a planet with a different gravitational pull? Did the car have jet rockets attached to it? Was Captain Kirk using a tractor beam on the vehicle?

Because when all the data is used it would prove you completely wrong and you know that for a fact. Again, if you ever have the balls to challenge me on this then by all means come out to my track and we can put this to rest.

Why would I need to do this? Others have already demonstrated the capabilities of the 18 GT. Do you have evidence that those results are fabricated?

Now if you did full bolt-ons with boost, then it would be an interesting match. But with just those mods you're talking about you would not stand a chance.

An 11.31 is quicker than an 11.8 ........

Against an A10 ZL1 it will not win at all.

Which A10 ZL1 would that be? The one in entries 3 through 14 on your fast list?

You can hang on to your 11.3 all you want. You can say that it is faster than my 11.8. Go right ahead.

Why wouldn't I consider it? Its the basis of the discussion.
-You claim Car A can't cover a certain distance in a certain time.
-We witness evidence of Car A covering that distance in a certain time.

It dismantles your argument.
What more is there to consider?

Again with the 11.31. So let me explain it to you again since that is the number you wanna cling to. If I did a max effort run in my A10 ZL1, then I absolutely believe I will do better than an 11.31. And I could do it up here in NJ in the Summer as opposed to doing it in the Winter.

So you comparing my 11.8 and all of our numbers done months ago....

Relevance? If anything the fact that you have had a much longer period of time to accumulate times hurts, not helps your argument.

.... when you don't even know how we drove our cars or if we were even trying to accomplish ........

I have a solution to this. See below. Its a revolutionary idea and I think it will gain traction (wink wink) at courses across the nation.

...to someone who took an 18 GT with the sole effort to max it out and get the absolute best time and ran it to it's full potential is cherry picked as hell.

So most racers don't care about any of that - getting the fastest time? good to know.

But that is what you Mustang guys LOVE to do. I wasn't even trying when I went. I was there hanging out.

The first night I went I didn't even pay to race. I paid to spectate and then had to walk all the way around to the front to pay the extra fee to race after my friends talked me into it. And I was not going to beat on my car. I did a 12.1 on my second run without even putting effort into it. My 11.8 came in like fashion. So if you think you can match me if I put effort into my runs then I would love to see you try.

So can we agree that tracks should now interview drivers regarding what level of effort they employed after each run? Maybe have a slip with the following boxes to check off:
Driver Effort:
"Some to little"
"Medium effort"
"Maximum effort- I did it for the Gipper!"

I can see drivers now:
"Im not really trying here and I will not let this reflect on my self worth as a human being."

Did you really push the gas pedal with as much fervor and effort as was possible?


Im finished. You can equivocate however you please.

Maybe there will be a new fundamental law of physics (yet undiscovered) which will ensure that a ZL1 will never again be beaten by a bolt on 18 gt.

Chevy's 4th law of motion?

[ST1LE]

So are we really arguing that a '18 GT with a pro-level driver and all mods except FI can beat a bad driver in a stock ZL1?

What does anyone gain from this hypothetical conversation? My M3 is slower than a GT, but if you botch your launch I will smoke your ass. Does that mean my car is faster? Hell freaking no, it just means that I am faster in my car than you are in yours.

That's all that matters. How fast your car is with YOU driving it.

[ST1LE]

Originally Posted by germanicus

Chevy's 4th law of motion?

I have one question.

Do you think Evans would be faster in the modded 'GT or a stock ZL1 on same day?

To be clear, do you think he can drive that Mustang faster than he can drive a ZL1 all things remaining equal?

[FastCarFanBoy]

Originally Posted by DevilsReject97

Considering how many people in that state can't drive.... I don't know that it really matters unless you're out at 3am...

ironically a study just came out ranking all 50 states by drivers and FL was 2nd best. iirc New Hampshire was #1

[13vertss]

Originally Posted by ST1LE

I have one question.

Do you think Evans would be faster in the modded 'GT or a stock ZL1 on same day?

To be clear, do you think he can drive that Mustang faster than he can drive a ZL1 all things remaining equal?

I was just about to say this. Put Evans in a stock zl1 for a day in a prepped track in mineshaft air and see what time he would get.