[kttxz06]

Originally Posted by Chadicus

Like Fanboy said I don't think Ford wants to use expensive lightweight materials or develop a new chassis and smaller cabin to cut some weight. They could bump up the power to 485 or so and put 4 piston rear brakes and 305 tires on the PP1 but again, that would be pricey too.

I think Ford is content to be slightly behind the Camaro in the performance metrics because they have been selling well. Remains to be seen what they will do with the higher prices.

U r right. Does Ford really care if it's constantly losing on the performance side to the Maro? Nope. Cus it sells. Mustang fanboys line up in droves to buy the under performer. What does that tell you?

[Chadicus]

Originally Posted by kttxz06

U r right. Does Ford really care if it's constantly losing on the performance side to the Maro? Nope. Cus it sells. Mustang fanboys line up in droves to buy the under performer. What does that tell you?

Logically the Mustang was always cheaper so for a lot of people (most) it made sense. Now that the prices are similar I don't think it will sell 2 to 1 anymore. People who dislike the lower visibility (especially rear and low speed) will probably still buy the Mustang. But for people like us who care more about the performance and don't daily drive these cars they will get the Camaro.

Where Ford made a big mistake I think was not selling the MRC, Dual Mode exhaust and PP as single stand alone options. I don't really care for the 301a package or the 401a. I don't want to be forced into a PP just for MRC. Especially when the SS comes with a better PP standard and the 1LE is light years beyond that. I guess we will see what the PP2 can do but I don't think it will be close to the 1LE at all.

Fanboys will buy the car no matter what. Just like I will watch the Cowboys every Sunday even though 20 teams are better performing teams.

[KingLT1]

Originally Posted by kttxz06

U r right. Does Ford really care if it's constantly losing on the performance side to the Maro? Nope. Cus it sells. Mustang fanboys line up in droves to buy the under performer. What does that tell you?

That was due to its price. Now that the price went up significantly, I bet you see more guys leaving Ford for GM or Mopar.

[Poppacapp]

Originally Posted by kttxz06

Stop it. So, basically, you are saying a fuel/tune/exhaust/ and most likely a tire will run down the Zl1? Bwahahahahahahahaha. Jeezus Christ. Can we stop it with this madness already. Here we have another one. You must of not of seen the dyno numbers that are being put out right now on E85/intake/tune. They are 120 hp under the baseline of a stock Zl1. You gonna need a whole lot more dude. A fuel tune and intake and exhaust will NEVER hit 10's. I repeat.............NEVER. NEVER. NEVER.

Look at my mod list. That is 10.85 @ 125.6 so far best et and trap. Ultra has gone just as fast. I believe the 18 GTs can do the same. Myself, Ultra, and similar modded 18 GTs will have no issues with ZL1s.

[Poppacapp]

Originally Posted by oldman

Really the bottom line is this: On the street in pure street trim it is the auto that is faster period, does not matter if it is in a Hellcat or a 2018 GT Mustang with whatever excuse they need as a "performance package".

Second bottom line, with bolt-ons and street tires all these cars including the ZL-1 are drivers races and the auto still holds. Me I picked the 6 speed because it was fun. who cares about some mythical "who's faster". I've beaten every car I've got into a fight with which is exactly one in the last two years. The rest is just bench racing and watercooler talk.

For the Verdict, please body in white, the verdict is a towed in race car that "looks" like a Mustang or Camaro, winner is the guy with the most cubic dollars. Proves little for the 99.99% of the people that buy a Mustang or Camaro.

6speed more fun, yes. 100% agree autos are faster.

Originally Posted by oldman

I've seen so little actually working and drivable twin turbo anything in my life, and even less at the tracks or autoX. So the word "easy" probably should not come in the same sentence as twin turbo. The reality is greater than the friction. Sure I love turbo, love twin turbo even more. I'm just pointing out that for DD crowded it is more myth than reality. Sure I expect you and others to post about how turn key 100% reliable etc a TT setup is. Not in my experience or world, glad it maybe in yours. Point being as soon as you bring up TT in a STOCK NA debate.... your cause is lost.

Friend of mine has the LPF twin kit on his daily driven S550. Has had it for 30k+ miles. No notable issues so far. Personally, I would not want a 9second car.. especially low 9s without a forged bottom end.

Originally Posted by kttxz06

^ Just as we all predicted. 12.6 will be your above avg run with MOST runs still being in the high 12's, low 13's. Only hero runs will hit low 12's.

Ran 12.46 in my 2015 GT A6 with catback only(3rwhp dyno tested) on 100% street tires in +217ft DA

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Ok I thought you were talking about the dealership. LOL! Still tho, a 9 sec Mustang GT on stock internals is not going to be a common thing. You need a lot of power to break 9s. It would certainly put the GT out of the realm of safe and reliable. And I really doubt these guys are DDing their cars. More than likely, if they are running 9s, then it is a really extreme tune and they're pushing more boost than the engine can handle in sustained runs. They probably trailer the cars there, throw the extreme tune on it, and then run whatever parts they need to hit those numbers. So all it is doing is idling up to the lights and then doing the run with race gas and who knows what else in it. It does the quarter mile and goes back in the trailer. And it is then either put back in it's street configuration afterwards or it just stays like so until the next track outing.

I agree that low 9s on stock internals is not a recipe for longevity. I would personally upgrade the internals.

Originally Posted by kttxz06

I'll give you that, but I think you know where I was headed in general. Ford can do tweaks and it would just be a better car in general. Added Brembo's all the way around. Check. I still think it needs a wider and better tire. Every time I'm behind a GT I'm like, damn those tires look skinny. They need to jam a 305 back there. Weight, well, however they need to shave 200 lbs, do it. I still think if it did all that, It would put the Camaro in it's place. But, Camaro is coming out with a refresh. I'm sure they plan on shedding a few lbs, adding a hp bump. Therefore, putting it more ahead of the Mustang.

Ford failed even more with the GT350 as it got it's ass handed to it by the Zl1 and let's not even compare the 350R to the Zl1 1LE. Across the board, Ford is getting it's ass handed to it by Chevy.

It's going to be hard for GM to shed much if any more weight from the Camaros.

And... did you just compare a ZL1 to a NA GT350? GT500 coming may have something to say about that... like it did in 2013....

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by Poppacapp

Look at my mod list. That is 10.85 @ 125.6 so far best et and trap. Ultra has gone just as fast. I believe the 18 GTs can do the same. Myself, Ultra, and similar modded 18 GTs will have no issues with ZL1s.

You base that off of being a good driver in a modded 18 GT vs a regular person in a stock ZL1 and that is not a fair comparison. I could cherry pick all day and claim that an excellent driver in a modded Evo can beat a regular person in a stock GT350. Or look at it like this, an excellent driver in a modded 18 GT might be able to beat a regular person in a stock ZL1 in the quarter mile...but that GT will not feel like 650 HP unless and until you hit it with boost. So there is a huge difference. Can I always at any time take a GT and do a max effort run? No. But can I take my 650 hp ZL1 and at any time feel all of those horses while staying within the speed limit? All day every day. 460 hp will never feel like 650 hp. And we don't compare modded cars to stock cars because if we did then the ricers would be talking even more shit than they already do.

And for the record, I consider myself a novice in racing. But you can put anyone you can think of in an 18 GT with those mods and put them in the lane next to me in a stock ZL1 and I'd be very confident that I'd come out ahead and in a much easier fashion.

[kttxz06]

Originally Posted by Poppacapp

6speed more fun, yes. 100% agree autos are faster.



Friend of mine has the LPF twin kit on his daily driven S550. Has had it for 30k+ miles. No notable issues so far. Personally, I would not want a 9second car.. especially low 9s without a forged bottom end.




Ran 12.46 in my 2015 GT A6 with catback only(3rwhp dyno tested) on 100% street tires in +217ft DA



I agree that low 9s on stock internals is not a recipe for longevity. I would personally upgrade the internals.



It's going to be hard for GM to shed much if any more weight from the Camaros.

And... did you just compare a ZL1 to a NA GT350? GT500 coming may have something to say about that... like it did in 2013....

Yea, I compared the Zl1 to the GT350 because the clowns over on the Mustang forums do.

Quote:

Actually the Ford GT, GT350R, Raptor, Focus RS are the Flagships of Ford Performance!

So, let's line em up. Ford GT vs the new Zr1. Not close. Zr1 will eat that shit up. GT350R vs Zl1 1lE. Again, not even a competition. GT 350 lines up vs the Zl1 in the pecking order. Again, Zl1 beats it down. Not sure why they consider the Raptor and Focus RS performance vehicles, but for some reason they do. Then you have the Mustang GT and the Camaro SS. Again, that's a toss up with a slight edge going to the Maro.

I messed up and went over to the other forum to see how they are accepting the new GT. And as usual, it was 20 pages of excuses and.....................Well, the Camaro is ugly. Not one post did they actually point to any performance variants between the 2 cars. It's the..........we don't have mullets like Maro owners. Yea, well, at least we can see. Or it was, the Camaro was ugly. But, when any Maro guy on there stated perf #'s. All hell broke loose. I swear, it's hard to take any Mustang owner serious nowadays.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by Poppacapp

And... did you just compare a ZL1 to a NA GT350? GT500 coming may have something to say about that... like it did in 2013....

1 - That depends on a lot of factors. Even with extreme HP the GT500 with an M6 trans is only going to go soo fast. Look at the HC. 707 hp yet can must only a high 11 in M6 form with the stock tires. Look at the 13 GT500. 663 hp yet could only do an 11.7 with the M6 trans. Ford has never put an auto trans in the GT500. So if they expect it to outrun the 11.4 of the ZL1 with the A10 trans, then it will need a hell of a good tire and a hell of a good auto trans. Is Ford going to break tradition and actually offer it with an auto? We'll see. Otherwise it'll need 750 hp, an awesome tire, and come in at like 3800 pounds just to match the A10 ZL1. And even then it won't be a massacre. It'll be well within a driver's race IF it does beat the ZL1. Around a track, well I doubt it'll beat the ZL1 1LE.

2 - I fall back on my earlier argument. It is nothing new and Ford is again late to the party. Dodge has the HC since 2015 and the Demon for 2018. Both mega hp cars. GM has the CTS-V, Z06, ZL1 (1LE), and the ZR1 is coming (for MY 2019). So now finally Ford shows up with something pushing the numbers that GM and Dodge have both been pushing since 2015? And that is if it is even available for MY 2019. They're late to the party by 4 years at that point. So even if they do beat out the ZL1, by that time the ZL1 will have been on the streets for 3 full MYs, lol!! They had better be able to beat a car that has been out that long since they sure as hell had enough time to develop it. So whats it gonna do? Show up 4 years late for 2 MYs and then disappear again for another 5 years? What kind of shit is that? It won't even matter if they do beat it. And we all see how GM is taking down cars with more HP. If anything the GT500 will have to be very exceptional to beat the ZL1.

3 - This ain't 2013 anymore. Back then the autos were losing to the manuals, Mustangs had solid axles and less weight, cars had nowhere near the extra options they have now...let's just say that the game has changed quite a bit since the last GT500. GM built a platform with the 6th Gen that would allow it to beat cars on higher trim levels and with more power. I think they were pretty confident that Ford would not be able to touch the ZL1 unless they built a similar car with an auto trans, excellent suspension, and awesome tires. We'll see what happens. But I don't think Ford can pull out a win with the S550 chassis. They might have to just do what they can and build the 7th Gen better than they did the S550.

[DevilsReject97]

Originally Posted by Poppacapp

And... did you just compare a ZL1 to a NA GT350? GT500 coming may have something to say about that... like it did in 2013....

What's it going to have to say? That it can go fast in a straight line but can't corner once again? Or that after a lap around the track the brakes are pretty much toast?

Let's just assume, for the sake of argument, that you are right....

What's it going to cost? Considering the markups on the GT350/350R, I'm going to say somewhere in the 80-100k range....

Who the hell is buying it? Or more importantly, will any of them actually race them....

[FastCarFanBoy]

Originally Posted by kttxz06

Yea, I compared the Zl1 to the GT350 because the clowns over on the Mustang forums do.

Quote:

Actually the Ford GT, GT350R, Raptor, Focus RS are the Flagships of Ford Performance!

So, let's line em up. Ford GT vs the new Zr1. Not close. Zr1 will eat that shit up. GT350R vs Zl1 1lE. Again, not even a competition. GT 350 lines up vs the Zl1 in the pecking order. Again, Zl1 beats it down. Not sure why they consider the Raptor and Focus RS performance vehicles, but for some reason they do. Then you have the Mustang GT and the Camaro SS. Again, that's a toss up with a slight edge going to the Maro.

I messed up and went over to the other forum to see how they are accepting the new GT. And as usual, it was 20 pages of excuses and.....................Well, the Camaro is ugly. Not one post did they actually point to any performance variants between the 2 cars. It's the..........we don't have mullets like Maro owners. Yea, well, at least we can see. Or it was, the Camaro was ugly. But, when any Maro guy on there stated perf #'s. All hell broke loose. I swear, it's hard to take any Mustang owner serious nowadays.

stop saying "Maro". I beg you.

[newmoon]

Originally Posted by Chadicus

Logically the Mustang was always cheaper so for a lot of people (most) it made sense. Now that the prices are similar I don't think it will sell 2 to 1 anymore. People who dislike the lower visibility (especially rear and low speed) will probably still buy the Mustang. But for people like us who care more about the performance and don't daily drive these cars they will get the Camaro.

Where Ford made a big mistake I think was not selling the MRC, Dual Mode exhaust and PP as single stand alone options. I don't really care for the 301a package or the 401a. I don't want to be forced into a PP just for MRC. Especially when the SS comes with a better PP standard and the 1LE is light years beyond that. I guess we will see what the PP2 can do but I don't think it will be close to the 1LE at all.

Fanboys will buy the car no matter what. Just like I will watch the Cowboys every Sunday even though 20 teams are better performing teams.

I think you are giving the general public too much credit. I'd be willing to bet 60%+ make their decision to purchase based on looks and comfort. A small segment really care about performance numbers.

[ST1LE]

Originally Posted by newmoon

I think you are giving the general public too much credit. I'd be willing to bet 60%+ make their decision to purchase based on looks and comfort. A small segment really care about performance numbers.

Agreed, in fact I think the % is MUCH higher.

[germanicus]

https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/auto...-gt/ar-BBH51bH

Stock GT doing 11's.

"11.835 at a staggering 119.51 mph."

[kttxz06]

Originally Posted by germanicus

https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/auto...-gt/ar-BBH51bH

Stock GT doing 11's.

"11.835 at a staggering 119.51 mph."

Holy crap. That is blistering fast. I have no idea what Camaro owners will do now. Watch out guys!!!!! We have an 11.8 hero run with track prep and lowered tire pressure. Remember, just tune it, add e85 and some tires and it's gonna smash the Zl1.