[hotlap]

Originally Posted by Stealth6

Gen5 was a much better looking Camaro. As soon as GM changed the shape of it in Gen6, they 'killed it'. Just the other day, I've seen a new (white) ZL1. It's remarkable how the round hood resembles a toilet seat. Now, every time I walk in to my bathroom, I can't stop thinking about that white ZL1.

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[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

Except for the bragging rights, a half-percent difference in lap times, same day/same pro driver is really a wash as far as most of the rest of us are concerned. 0.4 seconds is just noise when there's over a whole second of scatter among your best clear-track lap times.

If it had been the GT350R that had put down the incrementally better number, I'd be saying exactly the same thing in precisely the same words. You should know me that well by now.


Norm

Except that for everything performance related, the ZL1 beat the GT350R. 0.4 seconds is now "just noise" when Mustangs lose, lol!! But that is a lot of noise when you factor in that it was a stripped down extreme cornering car that costs more money and can't beat the ZL1 which according to Mustang guys "isn't even made for handling" at anything at all. So what are people even buying it for when the only Camaro it can beat are the V6 and turbo 4 variants.

Originally Posted by Stealth6

Gen5 was a much better looking Camaro. As soon as GM changed the shape of it in Gen6, they 'killed it'. Just the other day, I've seen a new (white) ZL1. It's remarkable how the round hood resembles a toilet seat. Now, every time I walk in to my bathroom, I can't stop thinking about that white ZL1.

Sure bro. So I guess they made the Mustangs to be slow as all hell and just look pretty.

[BlaqWhole]

I don't think any of you Mustang guys are actually playing with a full deck. I mean, you guys have cars that are supposed to be "Muscle Cars", yet for their price and level, they are the worst performing cars on the planet. The GT is a 435 hp 13 second car. The GT350R is already over-priced AND they get hit with several thousands of dollars that goes into the dealership owner's pockets. Neither of these cars can beat their rival. I mean, Ford could literally pour syrup over shit, call it a "pancake", and they would be selling like hotcakes, lol!!

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Except that for everything performance related, the ZL1 beat the GT350R. 0.4 seconds is now "just noise" when Mustangs lose, lol!!

Please read all of what I post before replying. You overlooked (or perhaps mis-read) this part ↓↓↓ , which I've reposted for your convenience.

If it had been the GT350R that had put down the incrementally better number, I'd be saying exactly the same thing in precisely the same words. You should know me that well by now.

Neither one of us is a new kid on the Camaro5/Camaro6 block.

and can't beat the ZL1 which according to Mustang guys "isn't even made for handling" at anything at all.

Don't confuse me with the fanboys. Of any car, or most anything else for that matter. I don't even think that way privately.

But do try to understand that there are people who actively prefer a car with a narrow focus over a car intended to have wider appeal.

But that is a lot of noise when you factor in that it was a stripped down extreme cornering car that costs more money

It's two different paths to essentially the same performance. Brute force with wider appeal vs singleness of purpose. At an HPDE event, I'd be thrilled if I could keep all of my fully warmed up and traffic-free laps in the same second, let alone within less than half that. That's what 0.4 seconds means to me.

You buy a stripped-down cornering car if it fits your personal preferences better than the car that tries to be more to more people, which for the purposes of this discussion means not even wanting everything-but-the-kitchen-sink feature content or top-of-the-class drag racing credentials. There really are people like that.

A couple of years ago, the narrow-focus car was the Z/28, and I know I'd have picked that over either the GT500 or the ZL1 as the car among those three that I'd most want to own. Would have DD'ed it for sure.


Norm

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

I don't think any of you Mustang guys are actually playing with a full deck. I mean, you guys have cars that are supposed to be "Muscle Cars", yet for their price and level, they are the worst performing cars on the planet. The GT is a 435 hp 13 second car.

At least stop the generalizing. I didn't buy my '08 Mustang for it having any claim to be a muscle car, nor would I buy any S550 because of that. Wouldn't buy a Camaro for that reason either.

And try to understand that not everybody values drag racing stats as highly as you seem to. If that's a good enough reason for you to pick the Camaro (or keep you happy with it), that's fine with me and I can be happy for you. But it's never been a reason for me to pick any of the cars I've ever owned, and with my next birthday cake needing room for 70 candles never will be. I've learned a few things about myself along the way . . .


As to GT350R pricing . . . "there's a sucker born every minute" and there certainly are people with more money than good financial sense about the smaller expenses in their lives.


Norm

[FastCarFanBoy]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

I don't think any of you Mustang guys are actually playing with a full deck. I mean, you guys have cars that are supposed to be "Muscle Cars", yet for their price and level, they are the worst performing cars on the planet. The GT is a 435 hp 13 second car. The GT350R is already over-priced AND they get hit with several thousands of dollars that goes into the dealership owner's pockets. Neither of these cars can beat their rival. I mean, Ford could literally pour syrup over shit, call it a "pancake", and they would be selling like hotcakes, lol!!

I'm "Mustang guy" and my deck is most definitely not full. When I bought my "supposed Muscle Car" I had an idea where I wanted to go with it. on its 1st pass at 500mi it went 13.09@109.9, but to run the #'s my car does now it was still wiser to choose the "worst performing car on the planet" than to choose a Camaro, so while not full, my deck has enough cards in it.

...also I think it's cute that you find 11 second cars to be fast and even cuter when you call low 12 second cars slow.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

Please read all of what I post before replying. You overlooked (or perhaps mis-read) this part ↓↓↓ , which I've reposted for your convenience.

Neither one of us is a new kid on the Camaro5/Camaro6 block.


Don't confuse me with the fanboys. Of any car, or most anything else for that matter. I don't even think that way privately.

But do try to understand that there are people who actively prefer a car with a narrow focus over a car intended to have wider appeal.

It's two different paths to essentially the same performance. Brute force with wider appeal vs singleness of purpose. At an HPDE event, I'd be thrilled if I could keep all of my fully warmed up and traffic-free laps in the same second, let alone within less than half that. That's what 0.4 seconds means to me.

You buy a stripped-down cornering car if it fits your personal preferences better than the car that tries to be more to more people, which for the purposes of this discussion means not even wanting everything-but-the-kitchen-sink feature content or top-of-the-class drag racing credentials. There really are people like that.

A couple of years ago, the narrow-focus car was the Z/28, and I know I'd have picked that over either the GT500 or the ZL1 as the car among those three that I'd most want to own. Would have DD'ed it for sure.


Norm

I think you misunderstood what I was saying.

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

At least stop the generalizing. I didn't buy my '08 Mustang for it having any claim to be a muscle car, nor would I buy any S550 because of that. Wouldn't buy a Camaro for that reason either.

And try to understand that not everybody values drag racing stats as highly as you seem to. If that's a good enough reason for you to pick the Camaro (or keep you happy with it), that's fine with me and I can be happy for you. But it's never been a reason for me to pick any of the cars I've ever owned, and with my next birthday cake needing room for 70 candles never will be. I've learned a few things about myself along the way . . .


As to GT350R pricing . . . "there's a sucker born every minute" and there certainly are people with more money than good financial sense about the smaller expenses in their lives.


Norm

Again, quite the misunderstanding. I was not talking about YOU personally.

Originally Posted by FastCarFanBoy

I'm "Mustang guy" and my deck is most definitely not full. When I bought my "supposed Muscle Car" I had an idea where I wanted to go with it. on its 1st pass at 500mi it went 13.09@109.9, but to run the #'s my car does now it was still wiser to choose the "worst performing car on the planet" than to choose a Camaro, so while not full, my deck has enough cards in it.

...also I think it's cute that you find 11 second cars to be fast and even cuter when you call low 12 second cars slow.

I didn't say anything that was "cute". I said what was real. These days a 12.2 out of a Muscle car that costs as much as the GT350 R and non-R is slow. It is. Just like when the ZL1 first arrived and did a 12.2 most people considered that "slow" for what it costed and what it was. And that was 5 years ago. The ZL1 is now in the low 11s. It is almost a full second faster than the Shelby. So yes, a 12.2 is slow compared to 11.4.

And I do think Ford has taken a back seat when it comes to performance lately. The aftermarket is there. But you have to rely heavily on it to make a fast car out of a Mustang. Unless you get a GT500. Maybe the 18 will turn things around. And maybe the GT500, if it comes out for the S550, will also turn things around. But you can't deny that out the box the Mustang is not impressive. I mean, perhaps I do have some harsh things to say about the Mustang. But I think at this point in the game they are not putting up much of a fight.

[FastCarFanBoy]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

I didn't say anything that was "cute". I said what was real. These days a 12.2 out of a Muscle car that costs as much as the GT350 R and non-R is slow. It is. Just like when the ZL1 first arrived and did a 12.2 most people considered that "slow" for what it costed and what it was. And that was 5 years ago. The ZL1 is now in the low 11s. It is almost a full second faster than the Shelby. So yes, a 12.2 is slow compared to 11.4. .

except its not... your comparing an 10spd Auto ZL1 with a m6 GT350. Motortrend only managed an 11.8@124 out of the stick ZL1. 4/10ths and <5mph isnt much to brag about when you have that big of a power advantage.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by FastCarFanBoy

except its not... your comparing an 10spd Auto ZL1 with a m6 GT350. Motortrend only managed an 11.8@124 out of the stick ZL1. 4/10ths and <5mph isnt much to brag about when you have that big of a power advantage.

Well Motor Trend is not the say-all-end-all. The M6 has done a best of 11.4 while the A10 convertible has done an 11.6. And despite MT not being the authority in everything, in one of MT's tests it did an 11.5 at 125 mph. The GT350 did a 12.4 at 117. If you know anything about the track, you'd know that is a huge gap.

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

I think you misunderstood what I was saying.

You're still overlooking the fact that if the measured lap times had gone the other way, with the GT350R beating the ZL1 by the same 0.4 seconds out of 88 or so, that I'd have still called it noise. Still meaning not all that significant when you know there's way more scatter in your own lap times among laps on the same day (or even within the same session) driving just the one car you brought.

If I scale that 0.4 seconds in 88 (1:28 lap time) down to the 11.5 second range that means more to you personally, it'd work out to a little over 0.050 second difference in ET. Far less than the actual differences in their ETs, and meaning that you have to forget everything you know about comparative ET's and visual margins of victory at the strip when you're evaluating differences in road course lap times.

Again, quite the misunderstanding. I was not talking about YOU personally.

The Mustang population here isn't very big, and you didn't exclude me either. What was I supposed to think? Was I supposed to not see it?

And I do think Ford has taken a back seat when it comes to performance lately. The aftermarket is there. But you have to rely heavily on it to make a fast car out of a Mustang.

The Mustang needs the aftermarket "heavily" for drag racing, not so heavily otherwise. But since we don't place the same emphasis on the straight-line stuff, I'm just going to leave it at that.



Norm

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

You're still overlooking the fact that if the measured lap times had gone the other way, with the GT350R beating the ZL1 by the same 0.4 seconds out of 88 or so, that I'd have still called it noise. Still meaning not all that significant when you know there's way more scatter in your own lap times among laps on the same day (or even within the same session) driving just the one car you brought.

If I scale that 0.4 seconds in 88 (1:28 lap time) down to the 11.5 second range that means more to you personally, it'd work out to a little over 0.050 second difference in ET. Far less than the actual differences in their ETs, and meaning that you have to forget everything you know about comparative ET's and visual margins of victory at the strip when you're evaluating differences in road course lap times.

To be honest, you kinda lost me there.

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

The Mustang population here isn't very big, and you didn't exclude me either. What was I supposed to think? Was I supposed to not see it?

Not for nothin, but I don't have to exclude anyone. You took it the wrong way. I can't tell you what to think. But telling you that I didn't mean it towards you should suffice. You're over on the Mustang forum. I can tell because you have the same name over there as you do over here. I have seen plenty of comments from those twerps generalizing and lumping all of us Camaro owners into the same pot. And I have seen the things they say. And I avoid that site because they are entitled to that being that it is a Mustang forum. But I have not yet seen you criticize even one of them for what they say. Yet here you are on a Camaro site taking offense or criticizing me for my "generalizations" and the things I say. So don't preach about how neutral you are when it is clear that you aren't. In fact, the only guys over there trying to be neutral constantly get called "trolls" and all sorts of names. When have you jumped in on those Mustang guys like you're jumping in at me? So don't expect me to have anything nice to say.

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

The Mustang needs the aftermarket "heavily" for drag racing, not so heavily otherwise. But since we don't place the same emphasis on the straight-line stuff, I'm just going to leave it at that.

Since when? All you guys mainly talk about over there is mainly drag racing. There are a few of you guys that do road courses just like there are a few of us who do also. But the majority of guys there do drag racing. Matter of fact, every time I go to the strip there are a flood of Mustang guys there. More than any other car.

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

To be honest, you kinda lost me there.

I'll try one more time.

Suppose the 350R had beat the ZL1 around the road course by 0.4 seconds. I'd have still called that noise and for all practical purposes a tie. Both here and over on M6G.

But I have not yet seen you criticize even one of them for what they say.

It happens. Keep in mind that over there I'm less likely to be lumped into a minority - though there was a recent post where a dart was thrown at 4.6L 3V Mustang owners that I did come back at.

All you guys mainly talk about over there is mainly drag racing.

That's probably true for other active M6G members, but for the most part I stay out of discussions related to drag racing (including the dragstrip and other straight line results of the MT comparison that's the subject of this thread). Over there and here. I almost never go into the drag racing sections, and on the rare occasions where I do go to a 'vs' section it's not with a fanboy attitude.

I was agreeing with the point you made about the Mustang needing heavier aftermarket involvement, just limiting it to drag racing on the strength of the go-to solution over there being to add the forced induction that's been MIA with the S550 so far.


Norm

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

I'll try one more time.

Suppose the 350R had beat the ZL1 around the road course by 0.4 seconds. I'd have still called that noise and for all practical purposes a tie. Both here and over on M6G.


It happens. Keep in mind that over there I'm less likely to be lumped into a minority - though there was a recent post where a dart was thrown at 4.6L 3V Mustang owners that I did come back at.


That's probably true for other active M6G members, but for the most part I stay out of discussions related to drag racing (including the dragstrip and other straight line results of the MT comparison that's the subject of this thread). Over there and here. I almost never go into the drag racing sections, and on the rare occasions where I do go to a 'vs' section it's not with a fanboy attitude.

I was agreeing with the point you made about the Mustang needing heavier aftermarket involvement, just limiting it to drag racing on the strength of the go-to solution over there being to add the forced induction that's been MIA with the S550 so far.


Norm

I hear ya. Well like I said, any comments I made was not directed at you personally. You're alright in my book.

[FastCarFanBoy]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Well Motor Trend is not the say-all-end-all. The M6 has done a best of 11.4 while the A10 convertible has done an 11.6. And despite MT not being the authority in everything, in one of MT's tests it did an 11.5 at 125 mph. The GT350 did a 12.4 at 117. If you know anything about the track, you'd know that is a huge gap.

Ok, but if your going to pull a number off the "fast list" for the M6 ZL1, thats happens to be the anamoly then at least be fair and acknowledge that the 435hp GT is a mid 12 second car as there are a handful that have run those times and almost 20 that have gone sub 13 seconds.