[Modshack]

Originally Posted by 20171LE

The bold is because I am so sick and tired of people continually dismissing the legitimate visibility/blind spot issue and pretending it's only a problem with testers and non-owners. I am neither, I own a 2016 SS, and the car has poor visibility and blind spots.
Opinions are fine, but blind fanboism attempting to suppress legitimate issues is not.

You don't seem to be able to let this go. Mr. Wyndam is correct as have been many other posters in this thread. The Camaro is no worse than quite a few other cars I've owned. Apparently your portfolio has not been that deep. As a reminder, YOU BOUGHT THE CAR so I would assume the positives outweighed the negatives. Complaining isn't going to fix that. It is what it is. It will be like this for the next 5 years I'd guess. Sell it, move on. Buy an old technology SS 4 dr. to tide you over..

[Memphis43]

Originally Posted by 90503

Why is it up to just the Camaro to be the savior of GM?....It's not the only car GM offers for sale.

Each model of Chevy, and each model of Cadillac, Buick, and all the rest have their good points and features. It's not up to the Camaro to offer the greatest thing in all possible features, and if the visibility isn't the greatest in the Camaro, the alternative isn't just Mustang....GM has quite a variety. A potential Camaro sales loss due to visibility should be made up by the sale of another GM make.

I hope they keep the Camaro in the performance line-up and unique styling and not in the generic something for everybody line-up, of which there are already dozens of other choices.

Visibility an issue for you in the Camaro? Don't crusade for the demise of the brand to prove your point, go look at another GM model instead. A lot of buyers already like the Camaro as is to buy one. Sales will be just fine.

It's not up to just the Camaro. But that isn't the discussion at hand.

The Camaro doesn't have to sell large quantities. The discussion centers around how visibility and marketing it have impeded sales.

Then the other discussion at hand is trying to pinpoint how exactly the mustang is outselling the Camaro by a landslide right now. It's focused on just these two particular cars.

GM is doing fine as a whole right now. They aren't exactly worried about the Camaro.

To be fair, Ford does offer way more performance vehicles than GM. There aren't exactly many choices besides the Camaro that a consumer can go to in the current lineup.

[MrChrisLS3]

Originally Posted by Memphis43

What I'm saying is that it is not just visibility. But also marketing and strategy.

For example, overseas the mustang just outsold its competition for the first time ever. The Camaro isn't even in the conversation. Why? Because it isn't relevant over there.

Even is Chevy put the Camaro on fleet sales, they would still have to play catchup.

They will close the gap, but they won't pass the mustang.

I know visibility turns a lot of people away a from the Camaro that would otherwise consider it. I know this because I experience it first hand on a monthly basis.

For every person that buys one there are about 2-3 that don't whether it be price, looks, or visibility. Out of those three problems, the number one that comes up is.......visibility.

Believe it or not the last issue is usually price out of the three.

The performance takes care of that.

I'm just asking out of curiosity, but isn't possible that some of those 2-3 people that state visibility as their main objection are doing so because it is a factor that is so well publicized, it becomes an easy out to wiggle free from the salesperson?

I just ask, because in my limited experience, it always seems there is that moment, somewhere in the deal, where reality hits the customer, and they think in their head, "OMG, if I don't get out of here, I'm going to be buying this car today!" So they throw up this well known thing just to shut you down. I say this because anyone shopping the two door coupe segment is going to find visibility a similar issue in every single car they look at. Some may be marginally better than others, but only by a little.

Do you address this objection early on? Say at the walk around/test drive? Make sure that the prospect takes the time to adjust the seat correctly, the mirrors, as well as pointing out the enhancing features of the standard back up camera?

I've been in a '15 Mustang, and the visibility isn't much, if any better. The only thing the Mustang has right now is cash on the hood as you call it. Where the Camaro wins that battle is the in the value equation. Not only in features and benefits, but at the end of the 6 year note, the value of the free and clear title tends to be higher.

[SpeedIsLife]

Originally Posted by 90503

Maybe a Chevy SS....? Malibu or Cadillac? Pricing may not be identical, but you'll find something you won't be unhappy to drive.

Or, heaven forbid, if the Camaro is what you really want, just adjust or get used to the visibility if offers....Thousands already have!

Or maybe, if you're wanting a RWD sport coupe, because that's what you want, you'll go elsewhere if the Camaro isn't comfortable for you.

If I want a RWD sport coupe, that particular type and class of car, then I promise you I wouldn't be happy in a FWD Malibu or a sedan whose price of entry is nearly $3,000 over a 2SS Camaro (the SS).

GM isn't going to die, nor is Chevrolet, if the Camaro sells less, so there's no need to say GM to loyal to the grave. However, if enough people express frustration WITH the Camaro, GM just might improve it and make it a more universally comfortable and livable car.

I'm not saying the Camaro is a terrible car, it's a great sport coupe with sub-par visibility and utility. Just white-washing everything and saying the car is fantastic with no flaws or no short-comings is just encouraging laziness and lack of improvements with future cars.

[bballr4567]

Originally Posted by merlin803

And if the visibility was awesome but the styling stunk because of it, then that would be reason that it didn't outsell the Mustang.

See what I did there?

Really who cares if it outsells the Mustang? I just want GM to be profitable, and we don't know what that means to them. If they cut down costs because of combining platforms, decided not to lose profits on fleets sales.....we don't know, only GM does.

Why does everyone think the styling would stink if we had another 2" of side glass? It will still retain the exact same shape just shrunk.

You know who cares if it outsells the Mustang? Oh, the extra $150,000,000 that the Mustang is going to pull in if it outsells the Camaro by 50k at an average price of $30k. That is A LOT of money. It's not like the Camaro handed the Mustang its ass with the 5th gen in terms of sales either. The 6th gen Mustang is DOUBLING the sales of the 6th gen Camaro. That is outrageous. If you don't think GM is noticing how well the Mustang is doing, not just here in the US but in other countries, you are very wrong.

Camaro has to be popular. It has to.

[Memphis43]

Originally Posted by MrChrisLS3

I'm just asking out of curiosity, but isn't possible that some of those 2-3 people that state visibility as their main objection are doing so because it is a factor that is so well publicized, it becomes an easy out to wiggle free from the salesperson?

I just ask, because in my limited experience, it always seems there is that moment, somewhere in the deal, where reality hits the customer, and they think in their head, "OMG, if I don't get out of here, I'm going to be buying this car today!" So they throw up this well known thing just to shut you down. I say this because anyone shopping the two door coupe segment is going to find visibility a similar issue in every single car they look at. Some may be marginally better than others, but only by a little.

Do you address this objection early on? Say at the walk around/test drive? Make sure that the prospect takes the time to adjust the seat correctly, the mirrors, as well as pointing out the enhancing features of the standard back up camera?

I've been in a '15 Mustang, and the visibility isn't much, if any better. The only thing the Mustang has right now is cash on the hood as you call it. Where the Camaro wins that battle is the in the value equation. Not only in features and benefits, but at the end of the 6 year note, the value of the free and clear title tends to be higher.

Not really. I always make sure the customer adjusts the seats and mirrors as soon as they get in the driver seat.

It's not so much about being afraid to buy a car. As a salesman that takes pride in what he does, I do my best to take care of every objection that may come up as best as possible.

I just got back from training in Houston where I got to spend 3 days along side the new Cruze, Malibu, and Camaro as well as sit in their key competitors.

I took time to position myself in both the Camaro and Mustang and where most people find the biggest issue is the side view. There is just a massive blind spot from the side where the Mustang has a window that is a lot more open and has a clear view from the side that the Camaro does not.

The back window is almost identical in size. The mustang does have a slightly bigger view from the front windshield.

You can set your mirrors all you want. A lot of people still look to the side on highways and in traffic situations to see what's in their blind spot.

You know what you see in the Camaro? A pillar lol.

The cash on hood argument is a fair one. I'm curious to see the outcome when both end up having it and I'm not ruling out a few other factors.

But to say that the Camaro isn't losing out on sales because of visibility is nonsense.

[MrChrisLS3]

Originally Posted by SpeedIsLife

If you want another RWD sport coupe in the $30,000-$40,000 range, because that's what you're wanting, what other GM vehicles provide that?

How many $30-$40K rwd sport coupes are in Ford's line up? How many in Dodge's line up? Hyundai, Nissan, Infinity, for that matter?

By it's nature, it is a niche offering. None of these are bread and butter cars for the manufacturer. I'm not saying they aren't profitable, just not the one's the stockholder's are getting the largest dividends from.

And the bottom line is, if visibility is a huge issue for anyone, then a RWD sport coupe is not the car for them, period, any RWD sport coupe is going to have rear visibility issues by that standard. It is the nature of the design.

[SpeedIsLife]

Originally Posted by MrChrisLS3

How many $30-$40K rwd sport coupes are in Ford's line up? How many in Dodge's line up? Hyundai, Nissan, Infinity, for that matter?

By it's nature, it is a niche offering. None of these are bread and butter cars for the manufacturer. I'm not saying they aren't profitable, just not the one's the stockholder's are getting the largest dividends from.

And the bottom line is, if visibility is a huge issue for anyone, then a RWD sport coupe is not the car for them, period, any RWD sport coupe is going to have rear visibility issues by that standard. It is the nature of the design.

But that's exactly my point...you can go to Ford, or Dodge, of Nissan, or Hyundai..there are more options there. What is a visibility problem in one car for someone might be fixed by the visibility in another car.

What I was saying is that if you want a RDW sport coupe--you're going to look for just that. If you're brand loyal to GM, sure you can get a Malibu, Impala or such..

I want the Camaro to be the *best*. I want it to have the best performance, best livability and best visibility. I don't want to tides changing against such a truly great performing car because people can't comfortably and reliably see out of the damn thing and get something else instead.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by 20171LE

The bold is because I am so sick and tired of people continually dismissing the legitimate visibility/blind spot issue and pretending it's only a problem with testers and non-owners. I am neither, I own a 2016 SS, and the car has poor visibility and blind spots.
Opinions are fine, but blind fanboism attempting to suppress legitimate issues is not.

What about your equally dismissive attitude towards those who post that they have no problem with the car? What makes you right and them wrong? Calling us fanboys because we like what we've got is not an opinion or a valid argument at all...

You'll forgive me for saying this, but based on your posting history, I think you bought the wrong car...

Originally Posted by Memphis43

To be fair, Ford does offer way more performance vehicles than GM. There aren't exactly many choices besides the Camaro that a consumer can go to in the current lineup.

This is a totally different topic, but I hope to heck that their forthcoming performance models finally light the fire under GM's butt to put something exciting out there besides the Corvette, Camaro, and hi-po Cadillacs...

Originally Posted by SpeedIsLife

I'm not saying the Camaro is a terrible car, it's a great sport coupe with sub-par visibility and utility. Just white-washing everything and saying the car is fantastic with no flaws or no short-comings is just encouraging laziness and lack of improvements with future cars.

I think you mistake what we're saying...I don't speak for everyone - but I've never been in a reasonable situation that my Camaro hasn't been able to handle. Hell, I've stuffed 26 2x4s and other construction supplies in the trunk with the seat down before...

No vehicle will EVER satisfy the needs of all individuals...but I absolutely believe that the trade offs in utility that were made for the sake of style and performance of Camaro were worth it.

And I'd like to repeat what a person said earlier in this thread: None of the topics we're talking about are actually 'BAD', or 'UNSAFE'...or the car wouldn't even be on the road...but they are less so than some cars around it. And yet...they are also better than some cars around it.

Originally Posted by bballr4567

Why does everyone think the styling would stink if we had another 2" of side glass? It will still retain the exact same shape just shrunk.

Because it WOULD. Ask the designers...I have, on numerous occasions throughout the 5th gen's cycle, and the introduction of the Gen 6.

Fault them for lack of talent or vision, if you want to try...but if you drastically change the glass area, other things would have to be changed in order to accommodate that. It will look miserable without a total departure from the current Camaro design language. And that's important to understand. They can do it...but you're not just adding glass...the whole car's image would change. That could result in something looking like a BMW...a kidney-grilled jellybean designed by the unimaginative...The Camaro inspires passion and excitement, not utility briefcases...

Originally Posted by SpeedIsLife

I want the Camaro to be the *best*. I want it to have the best performance, best livability and best visibility. I don't want to tides changing against such a truly great performing car because people can't comfortably and reliably see out of the damn thing and get something else instead.

You can't please 100% of people 100% of the time.

The Camaro is what it is...and will be this way for at least the rest of the generation. And it's a GREAT car, all detractions considered.

If people don't like it enough...then don't buy it. And perhaps then GM will change their minds. But so long as it sells well enough to be profitable and worth their time and investment...then they're right, and those who think it's a mistake is wrong.


As I read through this thread...what I think this really boils down to is a case of Mustang-envy with a smattering of "design the car for me" syndrome.

[Memphis43]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wyndham

What about your equally dismissive attitude towards those who post that they have no problem with the car? What makes you right and them wrong? Calling us fanboys because we like what we've got is not an opinion or a valid argument at all...



You'll forgive me for saying this, but based on your posting history, I think you bought the wrong car...





This is a totally different topic, but I hope to heck that their forthcoming performance models finally light the fire under GM's butt to put something exciting out there besides the Corvette, Camaro, and hi-po Cadillacs...





I think you mistake what we're saying...I don't speak for everyone - but I've never been in a reasonable situation that my Camaro hasn't been able to handle. Hell, I've stuffed 26 2x4s and other construction supplies in the trunk with the seat down before...



No vehicle will EVER satisfy the needs of all individuals...but I absolutely believe that the trade offs in utility that were made for the sake of style and performance of Camaro were worth it.



And I'd like to repeat what a person said earlier in this thread: None of the topics we're talking about are actually 'BAD', or 'UNSAFE'...or the car wouldn't even be on the road...but they are less so than some cars around it. And yet...they are also better than some cars around it.





Because it WOULD. Ask the designers. Fault them for lack of talent, if you must...but if you add 2" of glass, the car will look miserable without a total departure from the current Camaro design language - which will result in something looking like a BMW...a kidney-grilled jellybean for the unimaginative...The Camaro inspires passion, not utility.





You can't please 100% of people 100% of the time.



The Camaro is what it is...and will be this way for at least the rest of the generation. And it's a GREAT car, all detractions considered.



If people don't like it enough...then don't buy it. And perhaps then GM will change their minds. But so long as it sells well enough to be profitable and worth their time and investment...then they're right, and those who think it's a mistake is wrong.





As I read through this thread...what I think this really boils down to is a case of Mustang-envy with a smattering of "design the car for me" syndrome.

I agree to an extent. The Camaro is what it is and will have to deal with it for the rest of the generation. Even with its shortcomings, it is still an amazing car. I freaking love it.

The issue you can't seem to get past is the profit and sales part. A company like GM would LOVE to sell as much if not more than the Mustang. To say they wouldn't.... I don't even know what to say.

A lot of people here assumed the Camaro would continue its sales success of liver the mustang or at least keep it close. Guess what, not happening.

Even if it makes profit, if they are competing with other brands and its main competitor, it could be looked at as a failure.

[Raven87]

Regarding the high beltline and the idea of an additional 1-2" of side glass/lower beltline: Everyone has an opinion about what it would 'do' to the current design but I am sure that the wide brush opinion of that it would 'ruin' it and turn the current model into a kidney grilled(?) BMW is just hyperbole that only the deepest of the faithful fanboys would tout. It would NOT ruin the design nor the character of the car.

Would it CHANGE it? Sure! But not ruin it. That's just 'the sky is falling' rhetoric.

Yes, a lot of people like the current design and good for them; I like MOST of it.

But the gun-slit windows and extremely high beltline are design flaws in MY OPINION and the car would have been even more awesome had they increased the side glass even just one measly inch and made it easier for driver/passenger to get their arm out.

Again, just my opinion.

[Modshack]

Originally Posted by Memphis43

The issue you can't seem to get past is the profit and sales part. A company like GM would LOVE to sell as much if not more than the Mustang. To say they wouldn't.... I don't even know what to say.

A lot of people here assumed the Camaro would continue its sales success of liver the mustang or at least keep it close. Guess what, not happening.

Even if it makes profit, if they are competing with other brands and its main competitor, it could be looked at as a failure.

People are missing the whole Mustang thing.....

Chevy has chosen to walk away from fleet sales (rental market) as profits are slim there. Ford continues to sell a ton of 6 cylinder convertibles to the rental agencies.....at skinny profits.

Gen 5 and Gen 6 Camaros are very Masculine cars. Likely the Mustang appeals more to women than the Camaro, and this has nothing to do with the windows I'd venture..

Chevy was slow to ramp up the Base 4 cylinder cars....Which typically sell in large numbers just because of the price point. Mustang continues to roll those out to every Secretary and Nurse with a steady job...

For every Mustang sold with big money on the hood and discounts, Ford loses profit. Selling a lot of cars for little money (Mustang) Vs fewer cars for a lot of money (Camaro) ends up the same in the end from a profit standpoint. This is the direction GM has taken. Their volume kings are certainly not the Camaro's...Nor would we want them to be if you want them to retain any value at all down the road..

[SpeedIsLife]

Originally Posted by Modshack

People are missing the whole Mustang thing.....

Chevy has chosen to walk away from fleet sales (rental market) as profits are slim there. Ford continues to sell a ton of 6 cylinder convertibles to the rental agencies.....at skinny profits.

Gen 5 and Gen 6 Camaros are very Masculine cars. Likely the Mustang appeals more to women than the Camaro, and this has nothing to do with the windows I'd venture..

Chevy was slow to ramp up the Base 4 cylinder cars....Which typically sell in large numbers just because of the price point. Mustang continues to roll those out to every Secretary and Nurse with a steady job...

So I'm presuming you have facts to back up these statements?

Or is it just baseless, sexist, alpha-bro level crap?

[90503]

When this Gen first debuted, I was among those who were disappointed that it was a evolutionary design and should have been a revolutionary design.

Am I continuing to rant about it now? No, because what's the point? The die is cast for the 6thGen design, literally and figuratively....I have since come to believe that the 6thGen is still a great car, vastly improved over the 5thGen (which I own one.)

I put myself into the "this is it, take it or leave it" category. I have seen them up close and may one day pull the trigger. Visibililty in the Camaro is not a deal breaker, nor is the evolutionary design.

Hoping for a model to improve is one thing. Ranting over a major design feature that will be locked in for several years will not result in a knee-jerk reaction by GM for those who don't like it. I think Camaro and GM will take their chances with the Camaro as is for the very foreseeable future.

By the way, these arguments about visibility are nowhere near as prevelant as the posts were against the 5thGen refresh....And amazingly enough, GM didn't change anything to make the vocal minority happy.