[Apex Motorsports]

Originally Posted by rez333

I can't wait for a smaller car - I'm kind of sick of this generation's bloated fat pig style.

I agree with you but you made an interesting comment that I hear pretty often. That the Corvette is too big. The reason I find it interesting is that it is actually almost identical in size to the Porsche 911 and weighs about 170 lbs less.

Length x width x height

Corvette ZR1: 176.2 x 75.9 x 48.7

Porsche 911 Turbo: 176.3 x 72.9 x 51.2 in

[PAUL SS]

Originally Posted by rez333

ZR1 will definitely get a boost in power, but I doubt GM will do anything on the ZL1 given that a design upgrade is coming soon. I think the next version is the version to lookout for. The people on this board who have seen it says that we will be happy with the new design. I can't wait for a smaller car - I'm kind of sick of this generation's bloated fat pig style.

Try a 1975 Caprice on for size.

[TheReaper]

That's a Land Yacht.

[ShnOmac]

IMHO we have reached the pinnacle of the horse power wars, we are at the point of diminishing returns. I really think we are going to see most of the R&D funds going into other area's besides power. Lighter parts, better suspension etc etc....

But of course I could be completely wrong.....

[JusticePete]

Originally Posted by Stew

You realize the 13 GT500 update is FAR more than just adding HP right? the suspension is redone with available electronic dampers, there is new launch control and performance stability control, the gearing is changed to higher ratios so technically less torque is being sent to the wheels in at least first 3 geas compared with the 11 and 12, aerodynamics have been coimpletely updated also to allow stability at 200 MPH. I see no problem with the 13 Gt500 keeping up with and yes, beating the ZL1 even on the twisties. they have a lot more into it than just throwing HP at it, they are going for blood in all shape and forms.... I can't wait for a comparison, heck, i would love to see a comparison between the 12 GT500 PP and the ZL1, IMHO, it will be a hell of a lot closer than what one would think. What a great time to be a motorhead!

Inside Line Mustang Results

V6 1:30.9 HP 300
GT 1:28.2 HP 400
Boss LS 1:26.1 HP 440
GT500 1:25.6 HP 550

GT has a 100 HP advantage over the six with better brakes and tires. It is 2.7 seconds faster.

The Boss LS has a 40 HP advantage over the GT and is 2.1 seconds faster than the GT.

The GT500 has a 110 HP advantage over the BOSS LS and is only .5 seconds faster.

The GT500 has 250 HP advantage over the six. Shouldn't it be almost twice as fast? At least 10% faster. It has to be 5% faster. 250 HP gets you 4% faster.

The GT500 with a 110 HP advantage over the BOSS LS is .4% faster than the BOSS LS.

The GT500 will need more than two mode electrically selectable dampers (soft or hard) and ABS based Advance Track to put down another 100 HP on a road course. It will be interesting to see what Ford does to get that three link under control.

[GT5Junkie]

Originally Posted by JusticePete

The GT500 has 250 HP advantage over the six. Shouldn't it be almost twice as fast?

The 1993 V6 Camaro ran 16.6 in the 1/4 with 160 horsepower. Shouldn't the 580 horsepower ZL1 be almost 4 times as fast? Why isn't the ZL1 running 4s in the 1/4? Okay, at least 6s. Okay, 9s. OKAY, high 10s. What? Low 12s?

to put down another 100 HP on a road course.

You don't "put down" horsepower. You put down torque. And through gearing changes, the GT500 isn't actually putting down more torque. It pulls longer, not harder.

But you already knew that, didn't you?

[Ject]

I think GT5Junkie got his tighty whities in a bind.

Please try to deny that magnetic suspension in the ZL1 is not better. It'll truly make my day.

[JusticePete]

Originally Posted by GT5Junkie

The 1993 V6 Camaro ran 16.6 in the 1/4 with 160 horsepower. Shouldn't the 580 horsepower ZL1 be almost 4 times as fast? Why isn't the ZL1 running 4s in the 1/4? Okay, at least 6s. Okay, 9s. OKAY, high 10s. What? Low 12s?

You don't "put down" horsepower. You put down torque. And through gearing changes, the GT500 isn't actually putting down more torque. It pulls longer, not harder.

But you already knew that, didn't you?

No news here and as usual no reply of substance.

• I spoke ONLY of Mustang performance with no reference to a ZL1.
  
• FORD is the company screaming 650 HP. Not me.
  
• Ford is the company that went the cheap route, after building a very good IRS for the Mustang Cobra, building a 650 HP GT500 with a three link.
  
• FORD is the company that killed the FORD AU IRS Falcon platform.

I suggest you direct your complaints about the marketing and design of the GT500 to:

Ford Motor Company World Headquarters
1 American Road
P.O. Box 6248
Dearborn, Michigan 48126-2798
United States
Phone: 313-322-3000
www.corporate.ford.com

[GT5Junkie]

• I spoke ONLY of Mustang performance with no reference to a ZL1.

• So the Ford should be "twice as fast" with twice as much horsepower, but the ZL1 shouldn't? The point is that "twice the HP = twice as fast" is completely ridiculous. Saying it over and over is silly and makes your argument look extremely weak. Is the ZL1 twice as fast as the V6 Camaro? No.
  
  

  FORD is the company screaming 650 HP. Not me.

  Ford is also screaming that gear ratio changes make it such that it isn't actually putting more torque to the ground, which makes it EASIER, not more difficult, to put the power down. Yet you COMPLETELY ignore that FACT because it completely invalidates your point.
  
  

  Ford is the company that went the cheap route, after building a very good IRS for the Mustang Cobra, building a 650 HP GT500 with a three link.
  

  FORD is the company that killed the FORD AU IRS Falcon platform.

Ford is the company who's "cheap route" has been crushing the Camaro in performance. Are there ANY SS/5.0 comparos that the SS has actually won? Can the SS with it's vastly superior suspension hang with the 5.0 at VIR? No.

I suggest you direct your complaints about the marketing and design of the GT500 to

Lol, what's to complain about? The GT500 is going to destroy the ZL1 in a straight line (which is where probably 99% of spirited street and/or track driving occurs) and will probably beat it at VIR too.

[4DoorRocket]

Ford has already stated that the new GT500 is going to get a IRS. I don't know why this keeps getting brought up Is the ZL1 going to be able to put down the 580 horsepower? Yes? How do you know?

I also don't know why the GT500's road course capabilities are being questioned. Have you not seen what the GT can do on a road course? It can stick with an M3. An M3! That's no slouch. Do you not think that Ford can't integrate that into the new GT500?

Seriously, this bickering is ridiculous. So what if the ZL1 happens to be slower. Enjoy the car.

with that being said IBTL

[JusticePete]

Originally Posted by GT5Junkie

So the Ford should be "twice as fast" with twice as much horsepower, but the ZL1 shouldn't? The point is that "twice the HP = twice as fast" is completely ridiculous. Saying it over and over is silly and makes your argument look extremely weak. Is the ZL1 twice as fast as the V6 Camaro? No.[/B]

Sigh. I know you are fixated on the Camaro, but I was NOT talking about the Camaro. I was only talking about Mustang performance on the same track, on the same day by the same driver. Mustang to Mustang. A BOSS LS is has a 40 HP advantage over a GT and is over 2 seconds faster. A GT500 with over 100 more ponies manages to be only .4% faster than a BOSS LS.

Now remember the Camaro has NOTHING to do with these questions.

1. Why does the BOSS LS perform so much better than the GT with only 40 more HP?

2. Why is the GT500 only .4% faster than the BOSS LS even though it has 25% more power?

Focus only on the two MUSTANGS as you compose your reply.

Originally Posted by GT5Junkie

Ford is also screaming that gear ratio changes make it such that it isn't actually putting more torque to the ground, which makes it EASIER, not more difficult, to put the power down. Yet you COMPLETELY ignore that FACT because it completely invalidates your point.

Wrong. I haven't ignored anything here. A road course is about maintaining MOMENTUM, the speed you carry into and out of a turn is critical to lap times. Once a vehicle reaches the limits of traction available through the tires increased power does NOT matter and increased cornering speed is NOT possible. Take another look at the Mustang lap times and you'll see this move from words in a post to lap times.

Originally Posted by GT5Junkie

Ford is the company who's "cheap route" has been crushing the Camaro in performance. Are there ANY SS/5.0 comparos that the SS has actually won? Can the SS with it's vastly superior suspension hang with the 5.0 at VIR? No.

We agree, Ford has taken the cheap route with the three link. I created this graphic to highlight it our sole are of agreement.

Ford Mustang Cobra IRS $$$
Ford Four Link $$
Ford Three Link $

Originally Posted by GT5Junkie

Lol, what's to complain about? The GT500 is going to destroy the ZL1 in a straight line (which is where probably 99% of spirited street and/or track driving occurs) and will probably beat it at VIR too.

Let me double check... As I suspected. There is absolutely NO track data in the public arena for a 2013 GT500 on a drag strip or a road course. NONE. In fact, Ford has not released ANY performance data for the 2013 GT500. That would mean you have no track data to support your statements, are voicing only your opinion while demonstrating your need to be visible on a Camaro forum.

NOTE: I enjoy a good discussion. I don't suffer fools well. I own a Mustang. I enjoy it. That doesn't mean I am blind to the weaknesses of the current Mustang chassis. Feel free to read THE Book on 5th Gen Suspension which includes our evaluation of the current Camaro right here on Camaro5 THE Camaro website.

[JusticePete]

Originally Posted by 4DoorRocket

Ford has already stated that the new GT500 is going to get a IRS. I don't know why this keeps getting brought up Is the ZL1 going to be able to put down the 580 horsepower? Yes? How do you know?

I also don't know why the GT500's road course capabilities are being questioned. Have you not seen what the GT can do on a road course? It can stick with an M3. An M3! That's no slouch. Do you not think that Ford can't integrate that into the new GT500?

Seriously, this bickering is ridiculous. So what if the ZL1 happens to be slower. Enjoy the car.

with that being said IBTL

I have not seen the news from Ford that the 2013 GT500 will have an IRS. If it does, that will radically alter the on track performance.

Some auto rags have already driven and released reviews on the ZL1. They have been favorable.

Whenever we do suspension development for a chassis we always bench mark against a bone stock vehicle. I have personally tested a 5.0 Mustang GT with the Brembo upgrade. The brakes went away after 1 1/2 laps. On the same course, the SS Camaro Brembo brakes performed quite well.

I can sympathize with your frustration over the bickering. There is no place for it on Camaro5. This is a CAMARO forum and I have decided to take on head-to-head the few Ford posters fail to respect the Camro5 community. If the moderators want me to stop, if I fail to meet the Camaro5 community standards I will stop posting in the Chevy Ford threads with no complaints.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by PAUL SS

Now that Ford will put the most powerful production engine in a Mustang for MY 2013 Will the ZR1 Corvette get a bump to trump Ford's 650 hp?

The Corvette has SOOO much more going for it than the GT500, a piddly 12hp isn't something I expect they're going to be worried about.

[8cd03gro]

Originally Posted by JusticePete

Sigh. I know you are fixated on the Camaro, but I was NOT talking about the Camaro. I was only talking about Mustang performance on the same track, on the same day by the same driver. Mustang to Mustang. A BOSS LS is has a 40 HP advantage over a GT and is over 2 seconds faster. A GT500 with over 100 more ponies manages to be only .4% faster than a BOSS LS.

Now remember the Camaro has NOTHING to do with these questions.

1. Why does the BOSS LS perform so much better than the GT with only 40 more HP?

2. Why is the GT500 only .4% faster than the BOSS LS even though it has 25% more power?

Because the Boss has IRS? Oh wait. . .


So what do you think would happen to current gt500 lap times if the new GT500 could equal the handling of the Boss, but have way more horsepower for the straights and better brakes?

His point about the gearing is not moot. Ford has stated that the torque at the wheels in at least first gear will be lower than it is on the current car. If torque at the wheels is less in lower gears, how will it increase traction problems when exiting a turn?