[gameovergt]

Originally Posted by ST1LE

This is a problem Ford will now face by waiting so dang long to release the GT500. It's just so late to the party, there are better things from the competition just around the corner(at least they appear to be better right now).

yeah but with the Shelby name they will sale. I have only owned 1 Camaro in my life a 2010 1 SS and loved it. Only 1 LS1 a 2000 Trans Am that I loved. Have owned 17 mustangs in various years/models. I was hoping the 500 would offer more but to be honest as I am obviously a mustang fan but the ZL1 at Gordon Chevrolet in Summit White is looking good right now!

[TheRealJA105]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a1...the-silverado/

So GM strapped the LT4 blower to the 5.3 in the Silverado but never went thru with producing this thing. In a way this is cool because I do want a Silverado in the future and at least I know a used ZL1 blower can be fitted to it. But I wonder why GM doesn't just go ahead and throw the complete LT4 engine with blower into a SUV to go up against the Trackhawk or a Truck to go up against the Raptor. They could build it for the street, throw AWD in it, maybe tune it specifically for a larger body, throw a top speed limiter on it (like 130 MPH), and price it around $60K-$70K. I think a lot of us would go for it over a pricier luxury-wannabe Trackhawk, Raptor, or the X5M/X6M. Even if it was de-tuned to 575-625 HP I think it would be a nice alternative.

With the Predator possibly going in the Raptor and the Hellcat engine possibly going into the Durango I think GM needs to acknowledge that there is a market for hi-po trucks and SUVs. And no, a 305 HP Blazer, no matter how cool it looks, is not going to cut it. These powerful engines are nice to have. But it would be nicer if they could be had in more practical applications. GM is the only one right now that doesn't cater to this market.


Yup. It is a necessary evil unfortunately.

Tahoe's already cost $70k+ with the 6.2 so it would be north of $80k like the Trackhawk

Originally Posted by Ethanolic

^this

The Auto/DCT transmissions ability to use vehicle sensors to predict shift needs will render the manual obsolete in terms of performance metrics on track, in fuel economy and durability.

Offering a manual for the sole reason of pleasing a decreasing number of purists makes poor financial sense.

#truth #hardtoswallowpills

[ST1LE]

Originally Posted by gameovergt

yeah but with the Shelby name they will sale. I have only owned 1 Camaro in my life a 2010 1 SS and loved it. Only 1 LS1 a 2000 Trans Am that I loved. Have owned 17 mustangs in various years/models. I was hoping the 500 would offer more but to be honest as I am obviously a mustang fan but the ZL1 at Gordon Chevrolet in Summit White is looking good right now!

Absolutely, they will! To be more clear about my statement, I really do mean that all assumptions including a high MSRP being considered. If they drop this car at a MSRP right at the ZL1, then it won't matter much that it is late to the party at all. If they want north of $75K at this stage in the game, it wont offer enough to be considered a good value in this competitive market IMO. I'm no brand loyalist and don't fall for the 'increase in value BS', so my statements are based on tangible factors, and not things like "but it's a Shelby".....not to mention NONE of these cars are real Shelbys anyway. What I get $ for $ is all that matters, regardless if its a bowtie, blue oval, bmw, p-car...whatever.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by hotlap

Absolutely not a $90k car. Its a $80k car. If Ford can match the Redeye widebody's et, respectable track performance and a sub $80k msrp, they have a winner.

As others have said, Ford waited too long and the C8, Redeye and ZL1 will get a strong look from anyone spending that much money

C8 supercar performance - the hot new thing
Redeye muscle car
ZL1 triple threat with an attractive msrp.

Where does the GT500 fit and how attractive is it at $80k? ...$90k ...+$90k?

That is an excellent point. They will have no problem selling it to the Ford Faithful. They will gobble it up regardless(unless it has a stupid high MSRP) And I am sure they will still sell every one they build. The problem like you mentioned is they are going to lose out or could easily lose out on the cross shopper

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

The problem with all these cars, with exception to the ZL1, is that you will have a difficult time finding any of them at MSRP for some odd reason. Plenty of us have been able to go to a dealership and buy a ZL1 at MSRP. Mine was slightly over because of add-ons but certainly not damn near $20K extra. So what is being added to the RE that they are $90K and higher fully loaded? Is it just that stripped down from the factory? Same with the Shelbys. This is why I think the ZL1 is the best car for the value. Because you can actually get one at value.




I'm starting to wonder if the reason why these higher HP cars are not being offered with a manual trans is really because they can't add in proper control over a certain HP. Or if perhaps the manuals cannot safely handle too much more than around 700ish HP without failing or becoming too expensive to build. Or maybe if the cost of building these vehicles is such that they cannot offer both trans styles in them and simply chose the automatic to attract more buyers.

Whatever the case the focus is on winning. And winning requires an auto trans. Manual equipped cars simply cannot keep up. It sucks but that is just how it is.

That is a very interesting topic on the ZL1. The performance it offers is truly amazing. It really is an insane package. Now this will get more into opinion based here but why is that more times than not the ZL1 and ZLE can be found discounted easily while the other cars in it's class are either above MSRP, at MSRP or you need to really look to find one below MSRP. Simply looking at it, tells me something about those other cars is causing demand to be higher, because something is causing them to be commanded at a premium or very little wiggle room. It's an interesting discussion piece.

Just jumping on car gurus as a source, around me it is easy to see a ZL1 or ZLE listed with about 4-6k off the MSRP. Hellcats have some good discounts, but quite a few listed close to MSRP and the RE for the most part is at MSRP some discounted and the GT350 is slight discounts or at MSRP

https://www.cargurus.com/Cars/new/se...d606&zip=60527

https://www.cargurus.com/Cars/new/se...d894&zip=60527

https://www.cargurus.com/Cars/new/se...2303&zip=60527



Now what is it that's being added to the RE to make it touch 90? Options. That car has a long list of optional packages from upgraded interior bits, to the widebody package, to upgraded electronics, premium paint, matte painted appearance packages. The car has almost 20k+ worth of options you can add to it, and in most cases most dealers are ordering them almost fully loaded.

As for why no manuals in the high HP cars, the guys below pretty much nailed it.

Originally Posted by Gunkk

It's all of this and 1 more reason: without all the pricy and heavy upgrades, they need torque management systems to protect the car from the driver...

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

Three reasons, mostly dealing with transmission electronics controls:

1. Transmission controls technology has progressed to the point where it is probably impossible for a human to shift faster and make better gear selections than a properly controlled automatic. The same holds true for DCTs. Similar levels of controller logic.
2. Transmission controls have progressed to the point where fuel economy can be optimized for whatever driving mode is selected. This is a HUGE deal for companies needing to meet ever stricter CAFE requirements.
3. Shift dynamics and transmission controls have combined to all but eliminate the friction and pumping loss disadvantages that older automatics have had compared to the more modern automatics.

That and I would say that much power in a street car with a manual trans I would say most drivers wouldn't be able to put that kind of power down effectively so auto it is.

Originally Posted by rocket403

Redeyes are selling for MSRP in my area, there may be some dealers that are putting ADM's on their cars but if you shop around you will be rewarded. I'll take the RE for the best value.

This ^ around me they seem to be at MSRP, a few discounted some slightly over MSRP.

[Chadicus]

Originally Posted by shaffe

That is a very interesting topic on the ZL1. The performance it offers is truly amazing. It really is an insane package. Now this will get more into opinion based here but why is that more times than not the ZL1 and ZLE can be found discounted easily while the other cars in it's class are either above MSRP, at MSRP or you need to really look to find one below MSRP. Simply looking at it, tells me something about those other cars is causing demand to be higher, because something is causing them to be commanded at a premium or very little wiggle room. It's an interesting discussion piece.

It is an interesting discussion for sure. The gun slit windows and bunker feeling is probably a turnoff to a lot of buyers. Also a Challenger fits the wife and kids and the Camaro does not unless the kids are 5 years old.

Another thing to consider is that Dodge has probably the best marketing department around right now. EVERYONE knows what a Hellcat is. How many non car enthusiasts know what a ZL1 is?

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by Chadicus

It is an interesting discussion for sure. The gun slit windows and bunker feeling is probably a turnoff to a lot of buyers. Also a Challenger fits the wife and kids and the Camaro does not unless the kids are 5 years old.

Another thing to consider is that Dodge has probably the best marketing department around right now. EVERYONE knows what a Hellcat is. How many non car enthusiasts know what a ZL1 is?

Those are good points but once you get into these top performing trims how many people are buying them as DD though so I would figure most people would have them as a 3rd car or just as a toy, so the daily driveability stuff wouldn't be as important I wouldn't think

[DevilsReject97]

Originally Posted by shaffe

Now what is it that's being added to the RE to make it touch 90? Options. That car has a long list of optional packages from upgraded interior bits, to the widebody package, to upgraded electronics, premium paint, matte painted appearance packages. The car has almost 20k+ worth of options you can add to it, and in most cases most dealers are ordering them almost fully loaded.

If you're buying the Redeye without the Widebody...you've just wasted your money.... and it's silly that they're selling it as a option...it's a must have...

And anyone that owns a Hellcat, would tell you that having that extra space for tires is a huge want for most of the community. However, most hate that it's nothing more than some truck flares on the side....unlike the ZL1 which has true flared fenders to open it up...

[DevilsReject97]

Originally Posted by Chadicus

Another thing to consider is that Dodge has probably the best marketing department around right now. EVERYONE knows what a Hellcat is. How many non car enthusiasts know what a ZL1 is?

Yeah, it's not hard to do a bunch of burnout videos....

[NW-99SS]

Does everyone forget that you can buy a 755hp ZR1 with a manual?

Oh well, I know I'm in the shrinking purist class where I prefer driving skill, which means manual control of the transmission and gear selection. Yes I've driven DCT, the new autos as well (A10, C7Z A8, etc) - no I don't enjoy them.

I will end with this, the autos big advantage is straight line acceleration - on the road course, as I already stated, with a highly skilled driver in the same car, both transmissions are within tenths of a second. If I want to drag race (straight line acceleration), I'm not going to buy a 60+K car that is highly capable of turning and braking to do it, I will buy a dedicated drag strip car and run single digits. I'm also not competing in any road course events where there is any prizes for being the fastest, you compare your own lap times after each session at my local track. I'm happy to just improve my car control.

I also realize this means I will be buying older cars for pleasure, and well, I already have a couple. I will continue to buy manual cars until I die. I enjoy them more and they hold more value than any auto cars.

Ok, I'm done. Let's get back to bench racing the GT500, C8 and ZL1s!

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by shaffe

That is an excellent point. They will have no problem selling it to the Ford Faithful. They will gobble it up regardless(unless it has a stupid high MSRP) And I am sure they will still sell every one they build. The problem like you mentioned is they are going to lose out or could easily lose out on the cross shopper


That is a very interesting topic on the ZL1. The performance it offers is truly amazing. It really is an insane package. Now this will get more into opinion based here but why is that more times than not the ZL1 and ZLE can be found discounted easily while the other cars in it's class are either above MSRP, at MSRP or you need to really look to find one below MSRP. Simply looking at it, tells me something about those other cars is causing demand to be higher, because something is causing them to be commanded at a premium or very little wiggle room. It's an interesting discussion piece.

Just jumping on car gurus as a source, around me it is easy to see a ZL1 or ZLE listed with about 4-6k off the MSRP. Hellcats have some good discounts, but quite a few listed close to MSRP and the RE for the most part is at MSRP some discounted and the GT350 is slight discounts or at MSRP

https://www.cargurus.com/Cars/new/se...d606&zip=60527

https://www.cargurus.com/Cars/new/se...d894&zip=60527

https://www.cargurus.com/Cars/new/se...2303&zip=60527

Using those links. There are 10 Redeye's in your area, 23 ZL1's and 30 GT350's.

- The Redeye is new with less availability.
- You answered the GT350 component. Dealers counting on Ford Faithful. At least not advertising the discount although some do.
- ZL1 is in its third year with no change and plenty of availability.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by hotlap

Using those links. There are 10 Redeye's in your area, 23 ZL1's and 30 GT350's.

- The Redeye is new with less availability.
- You answered the GT350 component. Dealers counting on Ford Faithful. At least not advertising the discount although some do.
- ZL1 is in its third year with no change and plenty of availability.

To counter your point though The GT350 is in its 4th year with minor changes, and a new model on the horizon that will obliterate in every measurable performance category.\

Even if you just switch it to Hellcats which have been around since what 2015? 7 of the first 13 have discounts the other 6 at MSRP.

The ZL1 12 of the first 13 are all discounted

Even when the ZL1 came out, it wasn't hard to nab one at MSRP or below. Even the ZLE, you could get one by me at least below MSRP after a few months.

Why is it the Chevy's competitors can still go at MSRP, slightly below or slightly over still, despite being the best overall performer, and overall value. That tells me or would lead me to guess the market doesn't view/value or demand just isn't there compared to the competition. Sure some of it could just be greedy dealers, some of these dealers by me are all owned by the same family/group so I don't buy that as much.

[ST1LE]

Originally Posted by NW-99SS

Does everyone forget that you can buy a 755hp ZR1 with a manual?

Oh well, I know I'm in the shrinking purist class where I prefer driving skill, which means manual control of the transmission and gear selection. Yes I've driven DCT, the new autos as well (A10, C7Z A8, etc) - no I don't enjoy them.

I will end with this, the autos big advantage is straight line acceleration - on the road course, as I already stated, with a highly skilled driver in the same car, both transmissions are within tenths of a second. If I want to drag race (straight line acceleration), I'm not going to buy a 60+K car that is highly capable of turning and braking to do it, I will buy a dedicated drag strip car and run single digits. I'm also not competing in any road course events where there is any prizes for being the fastest, you compare your own lap times after each session at my local track. I'm happy to just improve my car control.

I also realize this means I will be buying older cars for pleasure, and well, I already have a couple. I will continue to buy manual cars until I die. I enjoy them more and they hold more value than any auto cars.

Ok, I'm done. Let's get back to bench racing the GT500, C8 and ZL1s!

I am with you 100% man, well said! Auto, DCT, PDK...just not the same and not fun like a manual at all. I do appreciate being able to switch to auto mode in my soon to be sold M3, but I still crave the joy of a 3rd pedal and that is why I am selling it.

Sadly, we are the minority and it is true that manuals are being phased out, even V8's for that matter. I will be keeping a close eye on this transition as to ensure I get a great V8 manual car before they are all gone and dead.

I think companies like Porsche will have a manual option for a while, that is probably the only non-V8 sports car I would spend money on too.

[RobbyBeefcake87]

Originally Posted by NW-99SS

Does everyone forget that you can buy a 755hp ZR1 with a manual?

Oh well, I know I'm in the shrinking purist class where I prefer driving skill, which means manual control of the transmission and gear selection. Yes I've driven DCT, the new autos as well (A10, C7Z A8, etc) - no I don't enjoy them.

I will end with this, the autos big advantage is straight line acceleration - on the road course, as I already stated, with a highly skilled driver in the same car, both transmissions are within tenths of a second. If I want to drag race (straight line acceleration), I'm not going to buy a 60+K car that is highly capable of turning and braking to do it, I will buy a dedicated drag strip car and run single digits. I'm also not competing in any road course events where there is any prizes for being the fastest, you compare your own lap times after each session at my local track. I'm happy to just improve my car control.

I also realize this means I will be buying older cars for pleasure, and well, I already have a couple. I will continue to buy manual cars until I die. I enjoy them more and they hold more value than any auto cars.

Ok, I'm done. Let's get back to bench racing the GT500, C8 and ZL1s!

This. Love the fact that GM gives you the option to go manual on their Halo cars as well despite being disadvantaged for magazine 0-60 numbers.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by shaffe

That is a very interesting topic on the ZL1. The performance it offers is truly amazing. It really is an insane package. Now this will get more into opinion based here but why is that more times than not the ZL1 and ZLE can be found discounted easily while the other cars in it's class are either above MSRP, at MSRP or you need to really look to find one below MSRP. Simply looking at it, tells me something about those other cars is causing demand to be higher, because something is causing them to be commanded at a premium or very little wiggle room. It's an interesting discussion piece.

Another topic that is interesting and that goes along with sales is how come the Mustang and Challenger don't seem to be doing too well despite their stellar sales? I can say with 100% certainty that in 5 years I will be able to walk into a dealership and buy a 7th Gen Camaro. In 5 years will there be a 7th Gen Mustang or will there still be the S550? In 5 years will there even be a Hellcat or Challenger anymore? Will it be the same ole body and almost 20 years without a change? Will there be a GT500? GT350? The Camaro is the only one that has a steady future right now. I don't think even Ford knows what they're going to do for the next 5 years at this point. So maybe the Camaro isn't doing as bad as the sales numbers would have one think.