[ChicagoTommy]

Originally Posted by Thandel

Needs tune and gauges.. gauges are def not pointless. A/f gauge is a good one to have fuel pressure, oil temp, oil pressure, coolant temp, egt, fuel pressure. Yes the tune is needed for sure, but gauges can prevent a major failure if you catch something on a gauge drop in fuel pressure a/f goes out of whack you shut down before you blow up. I would love to see one full blown race car without significantly more gauges than you’d find on a factory vehicle.

All I’m saying is you need both.

20 years ago, you'd see race cars with a bunch of gauges. Even back then we were shifting from gauges to computers. We were running Accel DFI in a 93 Typhoon 20 years ago. If you hit a race track, look at any sub 10 second car, and I'll bet they're running some kind of aftermarket computer, or aftermarket tuning solution capable of receiving external inputs like AFR, FPR, EGT, Oil Pressure, etc. These new computer setups are amazing. Holley's Dominator EFI can just about control everything, and shut it down if there is an issue. Tremendous leaps in technology have happened in the past 10 years.



I've been racing for years in every environment you can imagine. Believe me, gauges are for show. As I said, by the time you see it on a gauge, you're buying an engine. Things can flash by in a split second that you can miss because you're busy driving the car. If you actually apply logical, rational thought, you'd understand my point. On a race track, if you're staring at gauges, you basically have a death wish. Personally, I'm looking at everything going on around me, like the car in the opposing lane and the track surface. Obviously my viewpoint has been shaped by my personal firsthand experiences. I've had to avoid cars coming at me sideways at a high rate of speed. Hell, I was on the RETURN ROAD at Wisconsin International Raceway in Kaukauna WI when a car cartwheeled over the retaining wall down near the scoreboards (very top end of the track, so it was traveling well over 100mph) directly in front of me!!! Before that happened, I'd typically be on the return road pulling off my helmet and stopping the datalogging software. Nope. Not anymore. Now it waits til I'm back in the pits. After that point, I don't think I need to explain why staring at gauges on the street is a bad idea as well. I actually know 2 people that have hit DEER in broad daylight leaving 2 different tracks in 2 different states because they were making a WOT rip watching the dash for an issue they had experienced on track!



So I still maintain, gauges bad, datalogging good.

[6th_gen_gino]

Originally Posted by ChicagoTommy

20 years ago, you'd see race cars with a bunch of gauges. Even back then we were shifting from gauges to computers. We were running Accel DFI in a 93 Typhoon 20 years ago. If you hit a race track, look at any sub 10 second car, and I'll bet they're running some kind of aftermarket computer, or aftermarket tuning solution capable of receiving external inputs like AFR, FPR, EGT, Oil Pressure, etc. These new computer setups are amazing. Holley's Dominator EFI can just about control everything, and shut it down if there is an issue. Tremendous leaps in technology have happened in the past 10 years.



I've been racing for years in every environment you can imagine. Believe me, gauges are for show. As I said, by the time you see it on a gauge, you're buying an engine. Things can flash by in a split second that you can miss because you're busy driving the car. If you actually apply logical, rational thought, you'd understand my point. On a race track, if you're staring at gauges, you basically have a death wish. Personally, I'm looking at everything going on around me, like the car in the opposing lane and the track surface. Obviously my viewpoint has been shaped by my personal firsthand experiences. I've had to avoid cars coming at me sideways at a high rate of speed. Hell, I was on the RETURN ROAD at Wisconsin International Raceway in Kaukauna WI when a car cartwheeled over the retaining wall down near the scoreboards (very top end of the track, so it was traveling well over 100mph) directly in front of me!!! Before that happened, I'd typically be on the return road pulling off my helmet and stopping the datalogging software. Nope. Not anymore. Now it waits til I'm back in the pits. After that point, I don't think I need to explain why staring at gauges on the street is a bad idea as well. I actually know 2 people that have hit DEER in broad daylight leaving 2 different tracks in 2 different states because they were making a WOT rip watching the dash for an issue they had experienced on track!



So I still maintain, gauges bad, datalogging good.

I agree with you my man, set up hptuners to datalog at the track and pay attention to the mustang in the other lane trying to kill you

[Thandel]

I have data logging on my DiabloSport but still feel gauges hold a purpose. I work for an insurance company I write estimates on accident cars people need to crash for me to have a job.

Also I’ve attached some photos of all different types of race cars all with multiple gauges on the dash some much more advanced than others. Most are capable of being monitored by the pit crew and still gauges. data logging does not tell you when you have a heavy fuel pressure drop and run lean as hell as when your gauge blinks and you shut down the car before it blows up. Or an oil pressure drops. Any good gauge will have something blinking when something goes nuts and I need to shut my motor down before I blow something up. I’m not saying data logging is not beneficial or something that need not be done. I’m also not saying stare at your gauges constantly.. but they are certainly not just for show. If they were specifically for show they would take them out of full blown race cars to save weight when every pound counts.

Also I’m saying that the kids buying gauges to stare at keep me employed.

[6th_gen_gino]

That's a good point @thandel atleast if it's blinking you have the chance to let out

[StPeteHyper2.0]

Guages are a nice show for looks... and do help monitor without having to flip thru settings or tie up the obd port.
I did have an issue.. while driving on the interstate, the evap hose blew the plastic check valve and the thefore the turbo was inhaling air. The AFR gauge was a bit out of whack from usual, so I pulled over and the engine was trying to idle at 2k rpm with AFR reading 17s before I shut it down.
Engines dont always blow when a guage goes nuts. Sometimes it can be a simple fix.

[cooper1965]

Originally Posted by Ockid

Hey guys. So I am getting the ZZP Turbo and I wanted to know what is a good boost gauge for our cars? I also want it to tell fuel ratio so when I get e85 it will read it. Really new to this, so if I said something incorrect please correct me.

You want a fuel ratio gauge (flex) fuel ??...

Only http://www.vermonttuning.com/product...t-camaro-2-0t/ can provide that for your platform.

Originally Posted by ChicagoTommy

My advice to you is to buy HP Tuners. Gauges are pointless. You need actual data logging capabilities when swapping turbos. Truthfully, you need actual tuning capabilities as well if you want a strong running car.



By the time you see bad AFR or knock on a gauge, it's too late, you're buying a new engine.



HPT monitors significantly more than a couple gauges ever could. With an upgraded turbo you need to know intake temps, fuel pressures, boost pressure, afr, maf/map. It is not a bolt on and upload a canned tune type of affair by any stretch of the imagination. Obviously ZZP has a tune they sell for this turbo, but that is going to be very basic and require several revisions before you can get consistent maximum performance. Even though our cars are all supposed to be identical, there is enough % of allowed variation from the factory in every single component. Those variations add up. What works well for me, may be entirely different for you.



One other thing I noticed was that you said you wanted an AFR gauge for running E85. You already have a wideband 02 from the factory. What you need is a functioning flex fuel sensor, otherwise your ECU will not know the ethanol %, which is necessary. Pump E85 can vary the amount of ethanol by 20% easily. Without the flex fuel sensor, you'd never know if you got a batch of 55% ethanol fuel.

THIS^ ......All day long



The only thing I can add to the OP is remember this:
Gauges will show you when a problem occurs,....

But , data logging will prevent the problem from ever occurring.

[Thandel]

Data logging will not prevent anything.. the ecm will prevent certain things or pop up an cel. Throw the car into a run rich mode to prevent something. I can confirm 100 percent that data logging will not prevent knock here is the email “OK, that is where I think your codes are coming from, as the data log shows there is some knock going on as well, which is from the higher air volume. At this point, it looks like you are going to need a custom tune to correctly map all of the air and fuel tables for the new piping setup. For your car, we can recommend Lew at www.*******tune.com.”
So a data log showed car getting knock and why I was getting a cel. But it didn’t prevent it, it didn’t shut the car off, it also didn’t blow up. It is however off the road while I’m working on the new catch can system and the new intake and cold side pipe.

Again I’m not saying data logging is useless. It obviously has its benefits see the email above. But gauges with the ability to alert you to a problem is a useful thing to have..

Everything you guys are talking about is piggy back ecu stuff they still use the factory ecu and sensors.

What you guys are referring to in your meaning is a full custom engine management system for f1 type cars which still have a freaking gauge just it’s an lcd screen on the wheel. Hpt diablo etc are not that. Gauges can be for looks yes, but they are useful.

Again I will refer to the photos I posted why would a nascar a full blown race only car need gauges besides Speedo and tach if that’s all they needed? I mean the data logging is done in real-time at the pits with their engine management system correct? Especially when every ounce counts.

Data logging helped me out for sure, but it didn’t prevent anything from occurring it didn’t shut down my car.. it was used as a reference point when I got home and uploaded it to the company.

I hope this clears everything up.

[Evil-Bee-NH]

Gauges have a place and they are helpful. Datalogging is also helpful but the way "i" see it is how often you gonna have that laptop in front of you driving where you can catch that issue happening right away that's distracted irresponsible driving at it's finest. With a gauge it's generally located in line of sight and blinks to alert you. I'm not saying it will always save your engine and not everything occurs overtime so having a gauge setup on built cars is a good practical safety net in addition to regular datalogging.

[cooper1965]

Originally Posted by Thandel

Data logging will not prevent anything.. .

I don't understand how you can think that? If your working with Lew or MonteSS as I have in the past, I'm sure one of the very first things they wanted was data logs to dial in STFT and LTFT's. I don't think anyone here is implying the "act" of data-logging can prevent problems... It's the understanding of that data, and knowing what to do with it that can. The F1 cars and gauges you reference are on a different level. They are using telemetry, for instantaneous analysis and recording, not data acquisition(data-logging) for later review. Not that I think we all really need to go full blown NASA here, these are 20k 4 bangers after all..lol

[RedonBlackRS]

Originally Posted by cooper1965

I don't understand how you can think that? If your working with Lew or MonteSS as I have in the past, I'm sure one of the very first things they wanted was data logs to dial in STFT and LTFT's. I don't think anyone here is implying the "act" of data-logging can prevent problems... It's the understanding of that data, and knowing what to do with it that can. The F1 cars and gauges you reference are on a different level. They are using telemetry, for instantaneous analysis and recording, not data acquisition(data-logging) for later review. Not that I think we all really need to go full blown NASA here, these are 20k 4 bangers after all..lol

By Lew do you mean Lewis Eaton? I had my 05 GXP tuned by him. It was fantastic! It looks like a lot of LS4 guys have come to the Camaro.

[Thandel]

Originally Posted by cooper1965

I don't understand how you can think that? If your working with Lew or MonteSS as I have in the past, I'm sure one of the very first things they wanted was data logs to dial in STFT and LTFT's. I don't think anyone here is implying the "act" of data-logging can prevent problems... It's the understanding of that data, and knowing what to do with it that can. The F1 cars and gauges you reference are on a different level. They are using telemetry, for instantaneous analysis and recording, not data acquisition(data-logging) for later review. Not that I think we all really need to go full blown NASA here, these are 20k 4 bangers after all..lol

What I am saying is data logging then tuning off the data logging is necessary.. however the after tune while driving and something happens, sensor goes bad oil line blows off fuel pump goes etc.. will not cause an immediate shutdown where as a gauge showing fuel pressure, oil pressure, a/f ratio etc starts blinking you can shut the car down before catastrophic failure.

When you said gauges are for looks only is just an untrue statement.. and yes data logging will not prevent catastrophic failure.. all data logs will show is what trims should be at what and where they are currently.. which helps tune a vehicle but just because a vehicle is tuned or is running data logging at the time does not mean it catches and shuts down the car..

So back to my original statement data logging will not prevent total failure it’s only for tuning unless you’re eyes are on the laptop while you drive.. where as a flashing red light on a guage can tell you to shut the car off now before more damage can be caused...

[cooper1965]

I never said gauges are just for looks. This is my car and the P3 gauge I use. I like to see some data real time, but gauges will never monitor a 100 PID's like data logging can. I will just leave it at that, the rest is pointless.

[Thandel]

Originally Posted by cooper1965

You want a fuel ratio gauge (flex) fuel ??...

Only http://www.vermonttuning.com/product...t-camaro-2-0t/ can provide that for your platform.







THIS^ ......All day long



The only thing I can add to the OP is remember this:
Gauges will show you when a problem occurs,....

But , data logging will prevent the problem from ever occurring.

You agreed with this guy and wrote this exact comment? Correct me if I am wrong.

If you blow and oil line and lose pressure does your data log tune help? Nope.
If your fuel pump goes or a vacuum leak happens and your trims go nuts does your data log and tune help? Nope.
Don’t backtrack on your comments admit when you are wrong. A data log will not prevent a problem from ever occurring. There are too many variables. All it takes is a hose to spring a leak.

I have never once said data logging and tuning is useless, all I’m saying is there is a reason you would use gauges as a protective measure. Data logging, tune, and gauges all have a use and a value and can help prevent catastrophic failure.

I’ll leave it at that.

[Evil-Bee-NH]

It's like deja vu