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Old 02-07-2010, 04:08 PM   #1
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Alpha platform = smaller; what does it mean?

Okay, I get that a frame can be made lighter with better materials and better engineering, but I don't get the part about the alpha platform being smaller.

What I mean is, if the alpha platform is smaller, it means that there is less cabin room and trunk space too right? Is that the problem with the Zeta?

The reason I'm confused is that I don't think the Camaro is that big in the cabin in the first place. Unlike the Challenger, it can't sit 5. It can barely sit 4, so doesn't it mean that moving to the alpha platform will mean even less cabin space?

Also another thing I'm confused with is: will the alpha platform enable better outward visibility without changing its looks? I mean: if the 5th gen Camaro were to have come out on the alpha platform, would it have looked basically the same but with more outward visibility? Maybe it's a silly question, but one person made the comment was that the alpha platform was such a huge improvement over the zeta platform, and I'm wondering what exactly might that mean.

To summarize:
1) I get it's smaller and lighter. Question: is that all the benefit? Will it mean less cabin space? If not, how can it have the same cabin space?

2) will outward visibility improve, or has that got nothing to do with the platform?

Thanks!
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Old 02-07-2010, 11:46 PM   #2
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does anyone have an answer to this? I really don't know what the science is behind "platforms". For example, I don't know how the Mustang can be a smaller "platform" and still have the same cabin space. Where does the space come from? Is it reduced hood space?
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Old 02-07-2010, 11:54 PM   #3
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The platform is smaller not necessarily the car that sits on it. The new CTS will be on it also and it is supposed to grow so I wouldn't worry to much.
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Old 02-08-2010, 12:00 AM   #4
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The platform is smaller not necessarily the car that sits on it. The new CTS will be on it also and it is supposed to grow so I wouldn't worry to much.
The car will remain similar.
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Old 02-08-2010, 12:31 AM   #5
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That's the part I don't get. I think of "platform" as some sort of frame design and layout for the drive train. It determines the length, width and wheelbase of the car.

That's why I'm confused how a platform can be smaller and yet the size remain the same?
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Old 02-08-2010, 01:59 AM   #6
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That's so far out if it's even happening at all, why worry?
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Old 02-08-2010, 02:10 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by v6sonoma View Post
The platform is smaller not necessarily the car that sits on it. The new CTS will be on it also and it is supposed to grow so I wouldn't worry to much.

But you never know if a V8 will still be available by Gen 6.
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Old 02-08-2010, 05:54 AM   #8
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It better have a pushrod V-8 of at least 5.7 liters that runs on all 8 cylinders or it will never see my garage.
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Old 02-08-2010, 02:33 PM   #9
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I heard mention that there will be smaller overhangs on the front and back bumpers (i.e. tires closer to the extreme corners of the car) that'll mean better handling and weight distribution. but it also means that they will probably be a similar wheelbase meaning the cabin will probably be a similar size. Just the frame "pick up points" where the body attaches will change. You'd be surprised how much they can change on a car without affecting how it looks from the outside. and remember, "smaller" is a relative word in teh car world. It's not gonna be the size of a beetle, I'd be surprised if it was much more than 2-3 " shorter/narrower (body work speaking, the frame is likely to be very different)

I wouldn't expect to see anything drastic. it certainly won't be the same difference as between the gen4 and 5 cars. Like everything else, the first crack at something is never the best. These are great cars, don't get me wrong. But by 2014 they'll have had some great real world test data, and time to get a good look at what can be tweaked to make it just a bit better.

Right now it's an axe murderer, deadly and effective, but not as clean an precise as it could be.

gen6's are going to be like Dexter. Calculated, extremley smart, and just better than everyone else at what they do.
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Old 02-08-2010, 02:36 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wylde1 View Post
I heard mention that there will be smaller overhangs on the front and back bumpers (i.e. tires closer to the extreme corners of the car) that'll mean better handling and weight distribution. but it also means that they will probably be a similar wheelbase meaning the cabin will probably be a similar size. Just the frame "pick up points" where the body attaches will change. You'd be surprised how much they can change on a car without affecting how it looks from the outside. and remember, "smaller" is a relative word in teh car world. It's not gonna be the size of a beetle, I'd be surprised if it was much more than 2-3 " shorter/narrower (body work speaking, the frame is likely to be very different)

I wouldn't expect to see anything drastic. it certainly won't be the same difference as between the gen4 and 5 cars. Like everything else, the first crack at something is never the best. These are great cars, don't get me wrong. But by 2014 they'll have had some great real world test data, and time to get a good look at what can be tweaked to make it just a bit better.

Right now it's an axe murderer, deadly and effective, but not as clean an precise as it could be.

gen6's are going to be like Dexter. Calculated, extremley smart, and just better than everyone else at what they do.
nice comparison!
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Old 02-08-2010, 02:38 PM   #11
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It better have a pushrod V-8 of at least 5.7 liters that runs on all 8 cylinders or it will never see my garage.
this thread is not about the engine that will go into it, just the platform it will sit on.
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Old 02-08-2010, 02:41 PM   #12
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they can stretch the platform to fit the camaro

example being the s 10 pickups and suv both sat on the GMT 325 platform, but the frames are competly different , but they share the same suspension systems ect
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Old 02-08-2010, 02:44 PM   #13
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This is hard as hell to explain without an engineering background. Number 3 can do a much better job, but I'll try.

Basically, a platform is the basic underlying architecture of the car. GM has a bunch of them, from FWD compact platforms to FWD/AWD midsize platforms to RWD truck/SUV platforms, etc. Platforms are designed specifically for one drivetrain or sometimes to incorporate AWD as well. The car is basically built up from the platform.

As such, the platform limits what you can and can't do with the design/engineering of the car. All of these complexities are things that I have very little knowledge about, so I won't even attempt to explain them.

However, there can be variants of a platform. For example, the new Epsilon-II FWD midsize sedan platform has spawned at least two, maybe three different variants, a SWB platform which underpins the Opel/Vauxhall Insignia and 2011 Buick Regal, a LWB platform which underpins the Buick LaCrosse/next-gen Chevrolet Malibu, and supposedly a premium variant that the XTS Concept is built on. This holds true for the Alpha platform, as the 3rd generation CTS will supposedly ride on an extended version of the ATS's Alpha platform.

When we say the Alpha platform will be smaller, we're comparing it to the current RWD Zeta architecture that underpins the current Camaro. Cabin space is something that we know nothing about for now since there aren't any existing cars currently on the Alpha platform. However, there are ways of engineering the car so that cabin space is maximized even on a small platform. Take a look at the 2011 Chevrolet Cruze for example. It's built on the FWD compact Delta-II platform but has interior space rivaling some midsize sedans (which will be a major selling point for it).
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Old 02-08-2010, 02:44 PM   #14
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they can stretch the platform to fit the camaro

example being the s 10 pickups and suv both sat on the GMT 325 platform, but the frames are competly different , but they share the same suspension systems ect
hmmm... so going off this, a 'platform' is basically a standard group of equipment that a vehicle can be built upon? for example: same breaks, suspension, power train, frame material etc.

-edit- ah, fenwick posted RIGHT before me heheh
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Old 02-08-2010, 02:51 PM   #15
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hmmm... so going off this, a 'platform' is basically a standard group of equipment that a vehicle can be built upon? for example: same breaks, suspension, power train, frame material etc.

-edit- ah, fenwick posted RIGHT before me heheh
Basically. Take the GMT-900 platform. GM builds the GMC Sierra, Chevrolet Silverado, GMC Yukon/Yukon XL, Chevrolet Tahoe/Suburban, Chevrolet Avalanche, Cadillac Escalade/Escalade EXT/Escalade ESV all off one platform.

Platforms make it easier to engineer cars across a wide range of brands or even within a brand itself. For example, GM's next-generation Two-Mode Hybrid system is finally going into RWD cars. As such, the Cadillac ATS and CTS will most likely have hybrid models available as both will be built off the same platform.
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Old 02-08-2010, 03:07 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sen10l View Post
Okay, I get that a frame can be made lighter with better materials and better engineering, but I don't get the part about the alpha platform being smaller.

What I mean is, if the alpha platform is smaller, it means that there is less cabin room and trunk space too right? Is that the problem with the Zeta?

The reason I'm confused is that I don't think the Camaro is that big in the cabin in the first place. Unlike the Challenger, it can't sit 5. It can barely sit 4, so doesn't it mean that moving to the alpha platform will mean even less cabin space?

Also another thing I'm confused with is: will the alpha platform enable better outward visibility without changing its looks? I mean: if the 5th gen Camaro were to have come out on the alpha platform, would it have looked basically the same but with more outward visibility? Maybe it's a silly question, but one person made the comment was that the alpha platform was such a huge improvement over the zeta platform, and I'm wondering what exactly might that mean.

To summarize:
1) I get it's smaller and lighter. Question: is that all the benefit? Will it mean less cabin space? If not, how can it have the same cabin space?

2) will outward visibility improve, or has that got nothing to do with the platform?

Thanks!
Quote:
Originally Posted by sen10l View Post
That's the part I don't get. I think of "platform" as some sort of frame design and layout for the drive train. It determines the length, width and wheelbase of the car.

That's why I'm confused how a platform can be smaller and yet the size remain the same?
A platform isn't a chassis that you bolt everything else onto. In fact, if you look at the structure of a G8 and a Camaro, they look nothing alike. Yet they're both on the same platform.

The term 'platform' refers to the basic organization of a vehicle and its approximate limitations. Its a set of variables that can be tweaked, but not changed dramatically. Each one has a certain range. A platform can have a wheelbase between A and B, overall length of C-D, width between E and F, height of G-H, engine torque of I, suspension setup J, drive configuration K, etc.

Currently, the Camaro is technically classed as a compact car while its based off of a full size sedan. The same is true of the Challenger. These cars are at the bottom end of the size limits for their respective platforms. If the Camaro were to switch to a smaller platform yet were moved towards the larger end of it it could remain about the same size as it is today, maybe a little smaller. But certain structural design elements could be removed because they aren't needed for the smaller platform, thus saving weight.

And if it does shrink, some of that reduction will be felt inside, but you can lose width and it won't matter much in a 2+2. A shorter wheelbase might bring the rear wheels closer to the back seat (vs bringing the rear seat closer to the front) and therefore have minimal intrusion on interior space. Height ... I don't think it will get any lower than it is now so thats not an issue.
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Old 02-08-2010, 04:56 PM   #17
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what are some of the things that could be removed from the zeta platform that aren't necessary on the alpha platform? (educated guess?)

thanks everyone for the great education!
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Old 02-08-2010, 05:43 PM   #18
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what are some of the things that could be removed from the zeta platform that aren't necessary on the alpha platform? (educated guess?)

thanks everyone for the great education!
Nothing would be specifically removed. Zeta isn't a weak chassis thats been beefed up and therefore allowing pieces to be removed. It was engineered to be what it is. A smaller design is inherently stronger, so you can get away with using less steel to achieve the same structural strength.
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Old 02-08-2010, 06:34 PM   #19
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"Platform" in the auto industry is just the underbody which holds the suspension and all the the structural stiffness. A company can change a platform in wheelbase and width to place different upperbodies on it. This is how they can share platforms. I wouldn't worry about styling. The platform approach is very flexible. FYI. I work for automotive in engineering.
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Old 02-09-2010, 12:45 AM   #20
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I read Alpha will have the same wheelbase,but body will be 1 foot shorter.
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Old 02-09-2010, 11:08 AM   #21
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what will be 1 foot shorter, the car (Camaro) or the "platform"?

If the platform is one foot shorter, I can't imagine what is being "cut off". Is it some excess redundant bit of frame? I know that's silly, but I can't imagine in my head what is being "removed" to reduce the length by 1 foot.
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Old 02-09-2010, 11:18 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sen10l View Post
what will be 1 foot shorter, the car (Camaro) or the "platform"?

If the platform is one foot shorter, I can't imagine what is being "cut off". Is it some excess redundant bit of frame? I know that's silly, but I can't imagine in my head what is being "removed" to reduce the length by 1 foot.
If you reduce the platform by 1 ft, you reduce the car by 1 ft. The reduced length would come from shorter front and rear overhangs. There isn't a frame to chop up. The Alpha platform isn't just a modified Zeta with bits and pieces hacked up. If the Camaro changes platforms, it will be a different car. It will be a 6th gen.
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Old 02-09-2010, 03:04 PM   #23
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Thanks for your patience.

Now the question: what are "overhangs"? Are they "useless" empty space in the car body (such as empty space in the engine compartment?), OR will removing overhangs entail reducing trunk space or some other sacrifice?

Thanks!
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Old 02-09-2010, 03:27 PM   #24
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the "overhang" is referring to whatever hangs outside the rectangle created by the wheelbase. So everything forward of the front wheels and back from the back wheels. if you look at some of the newer bmw's like the z4 for instance, there's not much hanging out forward or backward over the wheels. so it has a very small overhang. Imagine it this way if you glued all 4 wheels to the ground you have the same wheelbase. then you push the bumpers in closer to the wheels, that's probably what the gen6 will look like.

pushing the wheels to the extreme corners of the body helps handling and weight distribution immensely. there is less "swinging" effect of an outside weight. If you can keep all the weight of the vehicle inside the wheelbase (preferably down the centerline) you automatically have a much easier time making the handling more predictable and sharper in alot of cases.
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Old 02-09-2010, 05:31 PM   #25
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the "overhang" is referring to whatever hangs outside the rectangle created by the wheelbase. So everything forward of the front wheels and back from the back wheels. if you look at some of the newer bmw's like the z4 for instance, there's not much hanging out forward or backward over the wheels. so it has a very small overhang. Imagine it this way if you glued all 4 wheels to the ground you have the same wheelbase. then you push the bumpers in closer to the wheels, that's probably what the gen6 will look like.
Couldn't have said it better myself ... so I'll provide pictures:

Consider the 1969 Dodge Charger:

Notice how the nose and tail extend quite a bit past the wheels? Now, compare that against the Z4 that wylde mentioned:

Granted, its a much smaller car overall. But there is clearly less in front and much less out back

Quote:
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pushing the wheels to the extreme corners of the body helps handling and weight distribution immensely. there is less "swinging" effect of an outside weight. If you can keep all the weight of the vehicle inside the wheelbase (preferably down the centerline) you automatically have a much easier time making the handling more predictable and sharper in alot of cases.
That is correct for a mid engined car. However, for a front engine car, having weight out past the rear axle counteracts the weight up front, resulting in a more balanced car (yet increases its polar moment). But that is a discussion for another time
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