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Old 01-17-2013, 10:45 PM   #1
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Dream 6th-gen Lineup...

I got a little bored this evening...and spent about an hour or so researching some of the cars on the market right now, like the Scion/Subaru RWD thingy, and the Cadillac ATS...to try and put together what I think could be a realistic lineup of Camaros for the next generation.

I had posted something like this a LONG time ago before the 5th-gen came out...and so I figured it might be fun, if nothing else, to do it again.

Just know...on the front end...I have NO idea if this is anywhere close to what's going on. I sincerely doubt even those who might be working on the car right now have things this nailed down. The content below is strictly guesswork done with some quick number crunching from today's cars...

Let me know what you think! Could be as fun a conversation as any...

Quote:
**All models available as Coupe & Convertible, automatic or manual transmission**

Camaro LS - > Competes with: Hyundai Genesis Coupe, Subaru/Toyota RWD love-child.
Cost: $23,800
Size: 183” L, 72” W, 54” H
Weight: 3275 lbs
Standard Engine: Turbo 4-cylinder (280hp, 265lbs tq)
Estimated performance: 0-60: 5.6 sec, ¼ mile: 14.0, .90g
MPG: 20city/33hwy
  • Optional RS performance package adds: Brembo 4-piston brakes, more aggressively geared rear differential, performance summer tire, and a few special-treatment appearance modifications like spoilers, etc. (Cost: $3000)

RS Performance package increases performance....0-60: 5.4 sec, 1/4 mile: 13.9, .96g

Camaro LT - > Competes with Hyundai Genesis Coupe V6, Nissan 370z, Ford Mustang V6
Cost: $27,500
Changes from LS –
Weight: 3400
Standard Engine: TT 3.6L V6 (380hp, 375lbs tq)
Estimated Performance: 0-60: 4.5, ¼ mile: 12.9, .90g
MPG 18/29
  • Optional RS performance package, adds: Brembo 4-piston brakes, more aggressively geared rear differential, performance summer tire, and a few special-treatment appearance modifications like spoilers, etc. (Cost: $3000)

RS Performance package increases performance...0-60: 4.5 sec, 1/4 mile: 12.8, .96g

Camaro Z28 - > Competes with: Ford Mustang GT, Dodge Challenger
Cost: $35,500
Changes from LT –
Weight: 3500 lbs
Standard Engine: Gen V LT1 V8 (465hp, 455lbs tq)
Estimated Performance: 0-60: 4.2 sec 0-60, ¼ mile: 12.4, .95g
MPG: 17/26
Includes (as standard equipment) unique badging inside and out, larger diameter wheels & slightly wider tires than LT (standard performance all-season), aero effects, some aluminum (and other lightweight components), performance gearing, and RS components standard (like Brembo brakes). Standard suspension stiffer than LT, but still compliant.
  • Optional 1LE package available on 1Z base trim level: Similar to current 1LE package, cost $4000 (increases performance to 0-60: 4.0 sec, ¼ mile: 12.2, 1.05g). Idea here is a competition-legal Z28. No extra badging.
  • Optional SS package available on 2Z trim level: Includes NPP exhaust, ZL1 wheel/tire & drivetrain components, MR suspension, and C7 Corvette’s new Drive Mode Selector & PTM system. Cost - $5500 (increases performance to 0-60: 4.0 sec, ¼ mile: 12.2, 1.1g) No extra badging.
  • Stand-alone Options: Carbon Fiber body panels (roof, hood, decklid), performance interior appointments (like seats, suede, and aluminum pedals), and NPP Exhaust.

Camaro ZL1 - > Decimates: Mustang GT500 (?), anyone else wanna play?
Cost: $60,000+
Changes from Z28 –
Weight: 3650
Standard Engine: Gen V “LTx” TTV8 (615hp, 600lbs tq)
Estimated Performance: 0-60 3.7, ¼ mile: 11.7, 1.1g
MPG: 15/23
Fully Loaded: SS package components standard, huge brakes (maybe even Carbon Ceramic??), sport seats, forged wheels, NPP exhaust, Carbon Fiber body panels, etc, etc.
In my fantasy land above...I'd seriously, seriously consider trading my 5th-gen ZL1 in for a 6th-gen Z28 w/ SS package, Carbon Fiber body panels, and all the trimmings...

Which would you pick? Is your dream 6th-gen lineup different?
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Old 01-17-2013, 10:50 PM   #2
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Sounds legit to me. Honestly, if the 6th gen did indeed hit that target weight and had a TT V6 in an LT level type car......I'd be sold!
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Old 01-17-2013, 10:51 PM   #3
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I love the idea of brimbos with the RS!! (maybe because I have a RS) Overall nice job!
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Old 01-18-2013, 02:03 AM   #4
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TT v6 would be really cool, nice write up!
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Old 01-18-2013, 07:13 AM   #5
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Nice write up. I agree with that you're saying on the top models, but I have a feeling the low end cars will all be the same motor...either a 4 or v6. GM is already planning on a new V6 based on the new LT series of motors. I'm guessing it will be somewhere in 350 hp range na. That's not to say they couldn't throw a turbo on it and make a new Camaro Sprint model
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Old 01-18-2013, 07:25 AM   #6
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For the majority of this conception of the 6thgen, I'm happy.

I struggle to understand the placement of the Z28 as a base trim for any SS (traditionally RPO Z27) option. If I were to edit this list, I'd place the Z28 between the SS and ZL1 as a possible track option.

I'd also like the RS package to be more limited for the Camaro than it is today. I liked the 4thgen RS lip kit as a part of that package. Perhaps we can consider some sort of projector halogen arrangement for non-RS Camaros and give RS Camaros the HID upgrade. Also, the darker tail lamps and painted roof ditch molding currently associated with the RS should stick with the future package.
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Old 01-18-2013, 07:43 AM   #7
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I like it! However, since we are dreaming how about GM offers engine options for the middle trim levels?

LS -- Turbo I4
LT -- Turbo I4 (base), NA V6 (option)
Z28 -- LT1 (base), TT V6 (option)
SS -- LT1,
ZL1 -- LT4
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Old 01-18-2013, 09:25 AM   #8
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I want to play this game

For me, in my dreams (at least my realistic dreams anyways):

Base Camaro, Turbo 4, 260 - 280HP and 280TQ. 3,300 lbs

Camaro N/A V6, 340 - 350HP, 300+TQ, 3,400 lbs

Camaro (standard) V8, 420 - 450 HP, 420 - 450TQ, 3,500lbs

Camaro V8 1LE or Z28, same or slightly more HP/TQ than standard V8, but with all the handling goodies and an appearance change.

Camaro V8 Supercharged, 600(ish) HP and TQ, magnetic ride modes, 3,700 lbs.

Now besides the turbo 4 I realize this is pretty close to what we have now, but just much LIGHTER and more nimble machines than what we have now. To me, weight is the only thing I really dislike about our cars. Sure would be nice to have a cooler digital dash, and apps and stuff but this thread is about performance so forget all of that for now.

I'd love to see a TTV6 also, but it is difficult for me to see where it would fit in the above lineup, so I left it out. But if it were offered, I'm sure it could kick some major butt as well. Only place I could see it, would be in a Z28 type package like Gretchen mentioned above.

I really hope to see a good, strong N/A V6 option but still capable of 30+ on the highway would should be pretty easily doable with the lighter weight and keeping gearing the same as it is right now. I wouldn't want to go with a higher gear than the 3.27s.

If the turbo 4 ends up being really powerful...say over 300HP / 300 TQ then there may not be as strong of a case for an NA V6, but I hope that isn't the case.
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Old 01-18-2013, 09:28 AM   #9
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I hope we see a V8 that is of the 5.0, 5.3 or 5.7 flavor as well. It would be a good engine for the Z28. Most of the rumors about a 5.3 or 5.7 seemed to die out when the 6.2 LT1 was announced, so I guess we just have to wait.
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Old 01-18-2013, 11:55 AM   #10
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The more I think about this, the more excited I get.
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Old 01-18-2013, 12:58 PM   #11
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I'm assuming that your 1LE gets the ZL1 wheel/tire package too? And that the SS is really the 1LE + mag ride + NPP?

I really like the idea of performance seats as an option.
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Old 01-18-2013, 01:21 PM   #12
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Please, let's not intermingle the SS and Z/28 again, they can and should be different, distinct models.
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Old 01-18-2013, 01:43 PM   #13
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Quote:
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I'm assuming that your 1LE gets the ZL1 wheel/tire package too? And that the SS is really the 1LE + mag ride + NPP?
Essentially, yes. But what's more - is all the systems are designed to work together in the SS performance package I've dreamed up. The electronic Driver's Mode Selection system adjusts settings for PTM, MR, Exhaust, among other things. The SS package makes the Z28 feel like a ZL1 minus the engine.

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Please, let's not intermingle the SS and Z/28 again, they can and should be different, distinct models.
Clyde
When I drew this all up...obviously, as nothing more than something fun to do...I discovered that with the introduction of the ZL1...things have gotten kind of screwy with Camaro names.

Because the ZL1 is so badass and out-of-this-world, I think Camaro NEEDS it...for status and bragging rights. But, then that means the Z28, and SS must share space, because neither are fit for a 4-cyl or V6 model...

And then...even in my dream world...I don't think there's room for two distinct performance levels in between a V6 and the ZL1. So...I figured a compromise is to include them both.

Z28 is the mainstream Camaro sports car in my lineup: and excellent in every way...a lighter, more powerful and dialed-in version of the current SS. With the theoretical performance package...it becomes "Super" sporty because of the way all the added systems will be able to work together like they do on the ZL1 model.

Even in dream world....there didn't seem to be an easy, semi-realistic answer to the Z28/SS debate...
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Old 01-18-2013, 01:50 PM   #14
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a) I honestly don't see the 6th gen Camaro being lighter than the ATS. I can imagine some chassis component swapping (to save money), which could potentially make it heavier; however, I'd also imagine removing some of the luxury items, which should result in weight savings.

b) The 2016 ATS will probably be making that from its 2.0 turbo (280/265). What I'd like to see though is some type of factory stage 1 kit for the Camaro (reminiscent of the one for the Cobalt SS, except standard) to bump output to around 310 hp and 345 ft-lbs.

c) It's my understanding (and I could well be wrong), that the gen V 5.3 is only going to be a truck engine (same with the new 4.3 V6). Of course, even if that's the case now, it could always change.
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Old 01-18-2013, 02:19 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GretchenGotGrowl View Post
I hope we see a V8 that is of the 5.0, 5.3 or 5.7 flavor as well. It would be a good engine for the Z28. Most of the rumors about a 5.3 or 5.7 seemed to die out when the 6.2 LT1 was announced, so I guess we just have to wait.
When reading about the C-7 it was said that the 6.2L was better fitted for AFM. The larger displacement allows you to stay in four cylinder mode longer cause of more available torque. I would like a smaller displacement V-8 as well but if they are stuck on having AFM in all V-8s then we may not see a smaller V-8.
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Old 01-18-2013, 02:40 PM   #16
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When reading about the C-7 it was said that the 6.2L was better fitted for AFM. The larger displacement allows you to stay in four cylinder mode longer cause of more available torque. I would like a smaller displacement V-8 as well but if they are stuck on having AFM in all V-8s then we may not see a smaller V-8.
I agree, but not sure the will need AFM in a smaller displacement V8 to achieve their fuel economy goals.
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Old 01-18-2013, 02:57 PM   #17
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....
c) It's my understanding (and I could well be wrong), that the gen V 5.3 is only going to be a truck engine (same with the new 4.3 V6). Of course, even if that's the case now, it could always change.
I agree with you, and as far as that 4.3 V6 goes, I'm sure it will be tuned for torque, rather than high rpm HP like the current Camaro 3.6 is.

But it has all the modern goodies now similar to the 3.6, so I suspect it should still make great HP. I'm going to guess HP in the 280 to 320 range and TQ in the 300 - 320 range.
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Old 01-18-2013, 03:36 PM   #18
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I don't understand the Z/28 as a base V8? If it is to compete with a GT, it would have to be in price as well. That would limit its performance and make the car not what people are wanting.

V6 as entry Camaro
SS as base V8 with LT1
Z/28 with a high performance NA LT engine
ZL1 with LT4.
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Old 01-18-2013, 03:46 PM   #19
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quite a bit of time to burn there boss..........
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Old 01-18-2013, 08:11 PM   #20
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I don't understand the Z/28 as a base V8? If it is to compete with a GT, it would have to be in price as well. That would limit its performance and make the car not what people are wanting.

V6 as entry Camaro
SS as base V8 with LT1
Z/28 with a high performance NA LT engine
ZL1 with LT4.
You offer a much better solution than the co-mingling of SS and Z/28. Chevy went down that road once before and it should be left in the past.
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Old 01-18-2013, 08:14 PM   #21
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Essentially, yes. But what's more - is all the systems are designed to work together in the SS performance package I've dreamed up. The electronic Driver's Mode Selection system adjusts settings for PTM, MR, Exhaust, among other things. The SS package makes the Z28 feel like a ZL1 minus the engine.


When I drew this all up...obviously, as nothing more than something fun to do...I discovered that with the introduction of the ZL1...things have gotten kind of screwy with Camaro names.

Because the ZL1 is so badass and out-of-this-world, I think Camaro NEEDS it...for status and bragging rights. But, then that means the Z28, and SS must share space, because neither are fit for a 4-cyl or V6 model...

And then...even in my dream world...I don't think there's room for two distinct performance levels in between a V6 and the ZL1. So...I figured a compromise is to include them both.

Z28 is the mainstream Camaro sports car in my lineup: and excellent in every way...a lighter, more powerful and dialed-in version of the current SS. With the theoretical performance package...it becomes "Super" sporty because of the way all the added systems will be able to work together like they do on the ZL1 model.

Even in dream world....there didn't seem to be an easy, semi-realistic answer to the Z28/SS debate...
While that explanation may make sense to you and some others, I think combining SS and Z/28 is a complete fail that has been tried before and should be left in the past to slowly fade away. But then, that's just my opinion, it sounds like you and perhaps others feel differently.
Clyde
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Old 01-18-2013, 08:22 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by knitetrain05 View Post
quite a bit of time to burn there boss..........
You're not kidding...

Quote:
Originally Posted by wildpaws View Post
You offer a much better solution than the co-mingling of SS and Z/28. Chevy went down that road once before and it should be left in the past.
Clyde
Quote:
Originally Posted by wildpaws View Post
While that explanation may make sense to you and some others, I think combining SS and Z/28 is a complete fail that has been tried before and should be left in the past to slowly fade away. But then, that's just my opinion, it sounds like you and perhaps others feel differently.
Clyde
I would prefer to have all trim levels each with their own special engine...I agree with you, actually.

Even though it was my "dream list", I tried anchoring it in the real constraints I thought Chevy might be subject to...and that resulted in either the full-on Z28 or SS being cut from my list. I like them both...but I like Z28 better...so that led to the guesstimate I arrived at, an impressive Z28 model with a truly potent SS package.

Like I said - I like where your head is at...but as soon as the ZL1 was added into the mix, I think things got screwy with trim levels. Because of this...I almost left model names off of the list. But then we might not have this conversation, which I'm enjoying.
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Old 01-19-2013, 03:08 PM   #23
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My dream sixth gen lineup.

Camaro 1LT- 330 HP/318 lbs. TQ NA V-6 24/32 MPG
standard steelie wheels, mylink- MSRP-$23,500
2LT adds leather, HUD, upgraded wheels (different from RS wheels), upgraded audio etc.- MSRP- $27,000

Camaro 1RS- 385 HP/410 lbs. TQ 5.3L V-8 21/29 MPG
unique wheels, hood, and spoiler standard- MSRP- $31,000
2RS adds leather, HUD, upgraded audio- MSRP- $34,000

*note* LT and RS models use same 6-speed auto or manual trans (no charge for auto in these models)

Camaro Z28- 462 HP/ 450 lbs. TQ 6.2L LT1 18/27 MPG
7 speed TREMEC standard, auto trans $1300 upgrade
standard leather seats (cloth available for $750 discount), painted rally stripes (stripe delete $900 discount), forced induction/heat extracting hood, brake cooling vents in front of rear wheels- MSRP- $38,900

1LE performance package(available on LT, RS, and Z28)
MR shocks, upgraded sways and bushings, 3:91 rear gears, trans and differential cooler, PTM similar to Stingray, electronic limited slip from Stingray, dry sump oiling, Good Year Super Car F1 gen 3 tires, 6 piston Brembos for RS and Z28, 4 piston Brembos for LT, 1LE package doesn't change wheels except for giving them a black finish- MSRP -$4800

ZL1- 620HP/660 lbs. TQ supercharged LT4 15/21 MPG
all equipment from Z28 with 1LE with substantially different body work, unique wheels/tires


stand alone options:

Vert available on all models, removable roof panel-MSRP- $1200, Vinyl rally stripes-MSRP- $500, NPP exhaust-MSRP- $900
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Old 01-19-2013, 03:18 PM   #24
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My dream sixth gen lineup.

Camaro 1LT- 330 HP/318 lbs. TQ NA V-6 24/32 MPG
standard steelie wheels, mylink- MSRP-$23,500
2LT adds leather, HUD, upgraded wheels (different from RS wheels), upgraded audio etc.- MSRP- $27,000

Camaro 1RS- 385 HP/410 lbs. TQ 5.3L V-8 21/29 MPG
unique wheels, hood, and spoiler standard- MSRP- $31,000
2RS adds leather, HUD, upgraded audio- MSRP- $34,000

*note* LT and RS models use same 6-speed auto or manual trans (no charge for auto in these models)

Camaro Z28- 462 HP/ 450 lbs. TQ 6.2L LT1 18/27 MPG
7 speed TREMEC standard, auto trans $1300 upgrade
standard leather seats (cloth available for $750 discount), painted rally stripes (stripe delete $900 discount), forced induction/heat extracting hood, brake cooling vents in front of rear wheels- MSRP- $38,900

1LE performance package(available on LT, RS, and Z28)
MR shocks, upgraded sways and bushings, 3:91 rear gears, trans and differential cooler, PTM similar to Stingray, electronic limited slip from Stingray, dry sump oiling, Good Year Super Car F1 gen 3 tires, 6 piston Brembos for RS and Z28, 4 piston Brembos for LT, 1LE package doesn't change wheels except for giving them a black finish- MSRP -$4800

ZL1- 620HP/660 lbs. TQ supercharged LT4 15/21 MPG
all equipment from Z28 with 1LE with substantially different body work, unique wheels/tires


stand alone options:

Vert available on all models, removable roof panel-MSRP- $1200, Vinyl rally stripes-MSRP- $500, NPP exhaust-MSRP- $900
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Old 01-20-2013, 01:36 PM   #25
Norm Peterson
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I can see your LS package working as-is. Feels like it would run about with my wife's Legacy 2.5GT, with crisper handling. That's plenty for folks who are primarily NOT buying for the performance, and there are plenty of those.

I see a problem with the 1LE and SS options growing out of Z28, which was itself traditionally an option. The question then becomes whether there is room enough for three distinct option packages arising out of a V8 LT version that I think makes more sense as owning the base V8 "handle".

Given that the V8 Mustangs go GT → Boss → Boss LS
. . . and that I feel there really needs to be a base V8 model for people who'd rather avoid any "boy-racer" image.
you'd be looking at V8 LT → Z28 → 1LE → SS with the level descriptions as given. I'd be shopping the 1LE here and would like to see adjustable dampers.
or perhaps V8 LT → Z28 → (1LE or SS) where the (1LE or SS) is where you get the MRC regardless of what you call it, but the Z28 would be spec'ed to your 1LE level. Make mine a Z28 with adjustable dampers.

Speaking of MRC, if it's part of a non-ZL1 package, I think it also needs to at least offer more than one program schedule and probably more than four if the car is intended to be competitive at the top levels of autocrossing. For those who might start swapping tires, springs and sta-bars for more serious use, perhaps user tuneability could at least be available.

To "decimate" the GT500 will require either more than 615/600 or a truly intensive lightening campaign to below 3500, as 615/600/3650 is barely keeping pace with the current GT500.


Norm

Last edited by Norm Peterson; 01-20-2013 at 01:52 PM.
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