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Old 08-14-2014, 07:11 PM   #1
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does anyone think GM will ever claim its spot back on top with the 6th gen Camaro?

with the new Challenger SRT Hellcat and the rumored 750hp -3500lbs 2016 Gt500, are we EVER going to get a Camaro that can beat these cars?? i know GMs flagship is the Corvette but why does the Camaro now have to be behind the pack of cars that are in its class? as much as i love them, i WONT buy a new one until they produce a Camaro that can finally shut up all the Ford boys out there...
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Old 08-14-2014, 07:57 PM   #2
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No way GM will come close to 707 hp with the Camaro.
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Old 08-14-2014, 07:58 PM   #3
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considering the 2015 mustange GT weighs 3,700 pounds i find it difficult to believe the GT500 will weigh 200 pounds less.
as far as the Challenger remember something: The Z/28 just came out with unbelievable track capability. There's no way Dodge can compete with that. Their car is too heavy. As it was the ZL1 already had them beat. The only thing they could do was add more power. It's still a car that weighs.....4,449 pounds. Think about that number. The Camaro is lighter and The next generation Camaro will be lighter than that it is now. Even with a supercharged engine it will be lighter. So they don't need 700HP to be as fast. On top of that it will be an unbelievable handling car with Alpha underpinning it. The Camaro has and always will be more than a drag car.
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Old 08-14-2014, 08:54 PM   #4
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If by top dog you mean 708 hp I really doubt it. But as for overall performance and even sales Camaro remains top dog. A hp number doesn't change that IMO.
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Old 08-14-2014, 09:46 PM   #5
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If by top dog you mean 708 hp I really doubt it. But as for overall performance and even sales Camaro remains top dog. A hp number doesn't change that IMO.
It doesn't now but eventually, they will have to hit those numbers. With Ford building a Mustang with IRS and a better chassis, plus having built the GT500, Chevy can't just rely on the Camaro handling better anymore. It more than likely won't have the same handling advantage. If Chevy wants the Camaro to stay competitive in the future, they have to build the best car they can and if it gets too close to Corvette performance, then too damn bad.
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Old 08-14-2014, 09:56 PM   #6
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If by top dog you mean 708 hp I really doubt it. But as for overall performance and even sales Camaro remains top dog. A hp number doesn't change that IMO.
Popular opinion lately has been HP above all else. I'd buy the best car with a manual over the fastest car with an auto all day, every day
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Old 08-15-2014, 11:07 PM   #7
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When looking at these three cars if all you see is HP numbers, you're extremely narrow minded.

Look at the price point of the high end models of the Challenger and Mustang, what ford and dodge are doing is trying to compete with the Camaro and corvette with one car and just offering crazy HP numbers as a gimmick. We don't have any good solid numbers yet on the 2015 Mustang, but to say it will handle like a 1LE, ZL1, or Z28 is just crazy. Fords dont turn well, never have. So in just one Gen transition they will suddenly have it all figured out? I doubt it. The challenger doesnt handle well, adding 700hp to it wont fix it. I don't understand why people think this new mustang that hasn't been real world tested yet and a heavy, horribly handling car with 700 hp translates to game over for Chevy.
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Old 08-16-2014, 05:52 PM   #8
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It doesn't now but eventually, they will have to hit those numbers. With Ford building a Mustang with IRS and a better chassis, plus having built the GT500, Chevy can't just rely on the Camaro handling better anymore. It more than likely won't have the same handling advantage. If Chevy wants the Camaro to stay competitive in the future, they have to build the best car they can and if it gets too close to Corvette performance, then too damn bad.
There is just no need or profit to be made here.

GT500 is not a better car than the Camaro. It might be if they do a new version or the GT350 replaces it. But the Gen6 will step up again.

Yes there are a few people that will choose a Challenger over a Camaro simply for the 707 hp. But they will have to pay more than the price of a ZL1 to get one. The number of people that can pay $60,000 plus for a car JUST because it has 707 hp are few and far between.

I could be wrong but I just don't see more than a few thousand sales for the Hellcat at that price.

Keep in mind Fiat has had the number 3 selling car in this segment all along. They needed to try and do something, anything to make a splash........and they did. I just don't see Camaro sales numbers dropping because of the Challenger Hellcat. The new Mustang on the other hand will likely hurt Camaro numbers.

What drives the engine is the base car. In 2002, the V8 Camaros and Firebirds were actually still selling. But it simply became a crappy V6 coupe and the bottom end dropped out. And in the case of the Challenger? It's still an overweight underperforming car in all guises but the $60,000 Hellcat.

GM could step up if that is not the case. And they could easily tune the new Z06 engine for another 50 hp if they felt they had to.

But that engine in a Camaro is 3 years away at best AND WILL COST A CRAP LOAD.

Put the currently announced 650 HP Z06 engine in an Alpha based Camaro at well under 4,000 pounds and I'm fairly certain the Hellcat is just a Meankitty.

Sorry, but "the best car" doesn't mean "the highest HP number" for me.
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Old 08-16-2014, 08:10 PM   #9
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with the new Challenger SRT Hellcat and the rumored 750hp -3500lbs 2016 Gt500, are we EVER going to get a Camaro that can beat these cars?? i know GMs flagship is the Corvette but why does the Camaro now have to be behind the pack of cars that are in its class? as much as i love them, i WONT buy a new one until they produce a Camaro that can finally shut up all the Ford boys out there...
You must be new to this...the Ford guys will never shut up. They're still making excuses as to why the Camaro has outsold the Mustang since 2009 and why a pro driver gets better track times in a Camaro.

If you just want stock horsepower then by all means go buy a Hellcat. You'll be one of the few owners of a very niche car.
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Old 08-16-2014, 11:18 PM   #10
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We don't have any good solid numbers yet on the 2015 Mustang, but to say it will handle like a 1LE, ZL1, or Z28 is just crazy. Fords dont turn well, never have. So in just one Gen transition they will suddenly have it all figured out? I doubt it.
Considering that they are switching from live axle to IRS it's entirely possible. I wouldn't be so quick to assume the next gen won't have any handling capabilities, especially with Ford marketing this as a "global car."
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Old 08-16-2014, 11:24 PM   #11
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with the new Challenger SRT Hellcat and the rumored 750hp -3500lbs 2016 Gt500, are we EVER going to get a Camaro that can beat these cars?? i know GMs flagship is the Corvette but why does the Camaro now have to be behind the pack of cars that are in its class? as much as i love them, i WONT buy a new one until they produce a Camaro that can finally shut up all the Ford boys out there...
GM's goal should be weight loss rather than power. Dodge may have the hp crown, but with that land yacht they need all the power they can get. Hopefully the Alpha platform will shave quite a bit of lbs.

Test drove a 392 the other day. It's substantially more powerful than my 2011 5.0, but thanks to all the extra weight it feels much slower.
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Old 08-17-2014, 12:46 AM   #12
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GM's goal should be weight loss rather than power. Dodge may have the hp crown, but with that land yacht they need all the power they can get. Hopefully the Alpha platform will shave quite a bit of lbs.

Test drove a 392 the other day. It's substantially more powerful than my 2011 5.0, but thanks to all the extra weight it feels much slower.
With the Mustang going up about 50lbs, and the Camaro likely to drop about 100 (if not 200) ... they should at least be evenly matched on the weigh scales, with the advantage probably going to the Camaro though the difference isn't likely to exceed about 50lbs.

On the 'normal' trim levels, it looks like the Camaro shouldn't have much of an issue out-muscling the Mustang based off of current engine offerings, and up top ... its nothing more than speculation about speculation. We don't know enough to make a decent guess yet, so there isn't much point in even trying. How about we revisit this idea in 6 months or a year when we know a bit more.




But overall ... GM has 'won' the battle of the 5th Gens. Year over year, the 5th generation Camaro has consistently outsold the 5th generation Mustang. Regardless of power to weight or visibility or ride or handling or interior styling or exterior bodywork or questionable tail lights or price or whatever ... more people have decided that new Camaros are more worthy of their hard earned dollars than Mustangs over the last ~5 years. Because when it comes down to it, that is the ultimate goal of an automaker. Everything else is secondary.
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Old 08-17-2014, 08:40 AM   #13
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Considering that they are switching from live axle to IRS it's entirely possible. I wouldn't be so quick to assume the next gen won't have any handling capabilities, especially with Ford marketing this as a "global car."
Why the hell do people think that the mustang having IRS is somehow magically going to make a out of the box GT perform like a ZL1 or 1LE? Ford has put IRS in a mustang before, and it handled like crap. People are putting too much faith in IRS, it takes way more than just IRS to make a great handling car.


Unrelated, but i laughed when I drove the 2015 mustang on Forza 5. It drove like garbage....
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Old 08-18-2014, 11:48 AM   #14
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There is just no need or profit to be made here.

GT500 is not a better car than the Camaro. It might be if they do a new version or the GT350 replaces it. But the Gen6 will step up again.

Yes there are a few people that will choose a Challenger over a Camaro simply for the 707 hp. But they will have to pay more than the price of a ZL1 to get one. The number of people that can pay $60,000 plus for a car JUST because it has 707 hp are few and far between.

I could be wrong but I just don't see more than a few thousand sales for the Hellcat at that price.

Keep in mind Fiat has had the number 3 selling car in this segment all along. They needed to try and do something, anything to make a splash........and they did. I just don't see Camaro sales numbers dropping because of the Challenger Hellcat. The new Mustang on the other hand will likely hurt Camaro numbers.

What drives the engine is the base car. In 2002, the V8 Camaros and Firebirds were actually still selling. But it simply became a crappy V6 coupe and the bottom end dropped out. And in the case of the Challenger? It's still an overweight underperforming car in all guises but the $60,000 Hellcat.

GM could step up if that is not the case. And they could easily tune the new Z06 engine for another 50 hp if they felt they had to.

But that engine in a Camaro is 3 years away at best AND WILL COST A CRAP LOAD.

Put the currently announced 650 HP Z06 engine in an Alpha based Camaro at well under 4,000 pounds and I'm fairly certain the Hellcat is just a Meankitty.

Sorry, but "the best car" doesn't mean "the highest HP number" for me.
You seemed to have missed where I said that the advantages Camaro has won't be there forever. I understand the current Camaro is better than the old Mustang and current Challenger but those advantages won't be there against the new Mustang.

My point is with Ford/Dodge willing to build hugely high horsepower engines, and GM clearly not for the Camaro, and Ford building a better Mustang, GM will have to change its ways or watch the Camaro fall behind.

When is the last time GM tuned or modified an engine to produce more power? the 2003 LS6? More than a decade ago? If GM cared enough about the lack of power compared to the Camaro's competition, why didn't they tune the LSA?

You honestly believe GM will put the LT4 in a Camaro at it's full potential? I'd expect it to be around 600 hp if they even use the LT4. If the LS9 was too expensive to go in the ZL1, there's no way the LT4 is going in.

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Old 08-18-2014, 12:58 PM   #15
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with the new Challenger SRT Hellcat and the rumored 750hp -3500lbs 2016 Gt500, are we EVER going to get a Camaro that can beat these cars?? i know GMs flagship is the Corvette but why does the Camaro now have to be behind the pack of cars that are in its class? as much as i love them, i WONT buy a new one until they produce a Camaro that can finally shut up all the Ford boys out there...
First off.....LOL that a 750HP 3,500 lb GT500 will ever exist. Not going to happen. I'm not saying Ford can't do 750HP, but it won't weigh less 200 lbs less than the base GT....it would take such engineering and expensive light weight materials that suddenly the Z/28 would seem cheap in comparison.

Next, 707 HP is cool, and impressive, and I'm not hating on the Dodge, but I could care less if the Camaro ever gets close to that number and I think most would agree.

Its just wrong that you say you won't buy any Camaro until Chevy produces one with more than 707HP. How does that help the cause at all? Thats just crazy son.

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If by top dog you mean 708 hp I really doubt it. But as for overall performance and even sales Camaro remains top dog. A hp number doesn't change that IMO.
Exactly.

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...

Put the currently announced 650 HP Z06 engine in an Alpha based Camaro at well under 4,000 pounds and I'm fairly certain the Hellcat is just a Meankitty.

Sorry, but "the best car" doesn't mean "the highest HP number" for me.
Right again...the Z06 engine in an alpha chassis Camaro...and goodbye kitty cat with with less HP.
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Old 08-18-2014, 01:40 PM   #16
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More HP is exciting to talk about, however it's not regularly usable like better handling and braking. Give me better handling and braking any day.
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Old 08-29-2014, 04:35 PM   #17
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i WONT buy a new one until they produce a Camaro that can finally shut up all the Ford boys out there...
Chevy can produce the nicest and fastest car in the world, but it's your duty to shut up the Mustang crowd
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Old 09-01-2014, 10:46 PM   #18
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the reason i even mentioned HP is because lets face it if we are going to weigh more than the competition then we will need more! the 6th gen may be losing weight but honestly i dont believe it will be much when the car is produced. yes im all for handling and braking but these cars were MUSCLE cars meaning they were meant to run the 1/4. i KNOW GM went a different route with the 5th gen making it more comfortable and more of an autox car and yes the sales have been on top of Mustang since introduction but us die hard Camaro fans who know the cars roots want a car that will do the 1/4 and smoke the GT500 like it used to back in the day! the car is already awesome on road courses now lets lose some weight and up the ponies and get it to rape the competition at the strip! if GM can make this car come out on top in all categories IMAGINE the sales! and the bragging rights!!!
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Old 09-01-2014, 11:17 PM   #19
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the reason i even mentioned HP is because lets face it if we are going to weigh more than the competition then we will need more! the 6th gen may be losing weight but honestly i dont believe it will be much when the car is produced. yes im all for handling and braking but these cars were MUSCLE cars meaning they were meant to run the 1/4. i KNOW GM went a different route with the 5th gen making it more comfortable and more of an autox car and yes the sales have been on top of Mustang since introduction but us die hard Camaro fans who know the cars roots want a car that will do the 1/4 and smoke the GT500 like it used to back in the day! the car is already awesome on road courses now lets lose some weight and up the ponies and get it to rape the competition at the strip! if GM can make this car come out on top in all categories IMAGINE the sales! and the bragging rights!!!
Even the 2014 V6 CTS VSport Premium versus the 2013 CTS Premium V6 saved 200lbs, and that's with twin turbos and an 8 speed automatic. The Camaro will weight the same as the Mustang and have more power. The Challenger isn't even a threat to either of them - at 707hp the Hellcat weighs a whopping 4400lbs+ and barely outruns the ZL1 in the 1/8 mile. Huge horsepower numbers are a moot point and just for bragging rights - no one actually cares because anyone that really wants a fast car is going to make it fast. Beyond that, the 2015 Mustang GT doesn't even have a legitimately improved 5.0. The LT1 sits at a comfortable 460/470, and that's going to be with the 7 speed manual and 8 speed automatic in the Camaro SS. Ford won't know what happened. And the HellStang is just a myth right now. Dodge will probably not bring anything to the table with the revived Barracuda anyway. The 6th gen Camaro will be ridiculous.
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Old 09-02-2014, 11:09 PM   #20
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Bragging rights are nice but sales leader is what counts.
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Old 09-03-2014, 02:33 AM   #21
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So I'm just curious , will the 6th gen be able to compete with the 2015 challenger RT with the scat pak for under 40k ? The scat pak gives a motor upgrade from the 5.7 to the 6.4 one and it comes with a 8spd auto .. I really wanna know would the 6gen be a better deal then that ?? I really am considering getting myself one ha ha but also waiting to see the 6th gen first .
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Old 09-09-2014, 06:44 PM   #22
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Bingo! That is most people main question.
Here's your claimed answer:
It may only be the zl1 or zr1 to beat this busters.
I hope the zl1 will get the zr1's engine.Otherwise its up to the Copo or They will protect Chevrolet's most powerful super/sport car.
But,we only need one that will beat that will be the best track car.
The Z28 (OR they end up saying Z38)
to track these cars.That's only what we need.
But,i have more.
But,today this is all your information.
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Old 09-09-2014, 06:47 PM   #23
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considering the 2015 mustange GT weighs 3,700 pounds i find it difficult to believe the GT500 will weigh 200 pounds less.
as far as the Challenger remember something: The Z/28 just came out with unbelievable track capability. There's no way Dodge can compete with that. Their car is too heavy. As it was the ZL1 already had them beat. The only thing they could do was add more power. It's still a car that weighs.....4,449 pounds. Think about that number. The Camaro is lighter and The next generation Camaro will be lighter than that it is now. Even with a supercharged engine it will be lighter. So they don't need 700HP to be as fast. On top of that it will be an unbelievable handling car with Alpha underpinning it. The Camaro has and always will be more than a drag car.
Ya About 4,000 pounds still
Im thinking a estimate of 3,900 or 3,800 Pounds will make it really fast
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Old 09-10-2014, 06:42 AM   #24
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This brand issue is kinda like voting. Some people just pull the party lever and some decide person by person. To win the election the person usually must pull people from the other party. The Camaro does that as the sales have proven. the current Camaro was a real punch in the face to Ford and Dodge with design and style. But To think HP or quickness doesn't matter is WRONG in my eyes. The new gen better be as Number 3's correct montra is make a great Camaro. I'd never thought we'd be at 700+ HP and blistering quarters in 2009 when the Camaro debuted. The counter punch better be fast, strong and accurate... Broke my own rule of word count...
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Old 09-12-2014, 03:18 PM   #25
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There will be no production car in the US that will ever compete with the Hellcat bone stock in the 1/4. This car can go int the record books for being the fastest american production muscle car. It's simply bragging rights. No one will buy a Hellcat to consistently race it on the strip. Not to mention, doesn't NHRA require a roll cage for anything under 11.5 seconds? Wouldn't the Hellcat be required to have the roll cage installed if you decided to race it? Now a days, autocross and tracking is becoming more popular than drag I believe. So handling is top priority which the Hellcat fails Im sure. I doubt driving a yaht on autocross with 707HP would be beneficial. lol
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