[Kamero6]

Originally Posted by FarmerFran

Ford says 2030 with a refresh in 2027.

Great! We'll see how it holds against electrics. I totally see Ford adding an electic motor like Gm with the Corvette E-ray

[Bosse'sBoss]

Very disappointed to see that the last muscle car does not have a better shifter (instead of the Tremec that the Camaro has and located also in more expensive Mustangs like the one in the Shelby GT350, Mach l & Dark horse). Numb feeling steering instead of improving on it. Awful looking Ipad style screens that are not integrated to the dash, I prefer the analog looking style inside the dash. And another overpriced Mustang for what you get. The number one Muscle car still belongs to the next soon retired Camaro. Too sad to see it gone out of the picture very soon.

[Bosse'sBoss]

Originally Posted by Joshinator99

I feel like you’re whitewashing the fact that Ford did most of the 10 speed heavy lifting (they had the engineering lead on the 10 speed project: https://www.caranddriver.com/feature...-transmission/) while GM did the 9 speed that Ford didn’t want. And either way, for the last poster to say the GM trans was better was silly since it’s virtually identical.

Martinjlm is correct, jusr check the web, it was a joint venture between GM and FOMOCO to develop the transmission, Ford decided to develop a 9 speed AT instead for the GT500 and the Raptor, while the ZL1 went the 10 speed way.

[Bosse'sBoss]

Originally Posted by crysalis_01

I got: GT (base) $42,495 Perf pack + $4995 Activ Exh + $1225 Delivery + $1595 Total = $50,310 https://shop.ford.com/configure/must...oboostfastback 1ss $42,300 1LE + $7500 Delivery + $1595 Total = $51,395 https://gmauthority.com/blog/2023/07...-and-packages/

And I guess that the '24 Mustang GT would not be able to compete in the track with a SS1LE, probably the Dark horse would compete against it at a much higher price, and for that the ZL1 is a better option.

[Kamero6]

Prices of mustangs are going to skyrocket. No competition and Ford having to buy 1/2 billion in carbon credits will make the Mustang V8 expensive. It won't be the affordable american sports car anymore.
I also think production will be limited.

Hopefully our Camaros will go up in price.
I'd like trade in for a 2025 100k, ecolectric-boost Ipad Doritos Edition Mustang.
With Wi-fi steering, Panoramic SunFloor and Manual eMT-82(simulated).

[crysalis_01]

Originally Posted by Bosse'sBoss

Martinjlm is correct, jusr check the web, it was a joint venture between GM and FOMOCO to develop the transmission, Ford decided to develop a 9 speed AT instead for the GT500 and the Raptor, while the ZL1 went the 10 speed way.

A few things are incorrect in your statement.

1. Ford didn't develop the rwd 9sp from the 10sp. Rather they took gm's fwd 9sp and developed a fwd 8sp.

And

2. "Sources say GM is leading development of a fwd nine-speed and Ford is spearheading work on a rwd 10-speed."
https://www.autoweek.com/news/a19326...transmissions/


"This new 10-speed rear-drive transmission is the result of collaboration between Ford and General Motors, although Ford had the engineering lead on it. The companies also are jointly developing a nine-speed transverse automatic for front-drive cars and crossovers; GM is leading the engineering on that effort."
https://www.caranddriver.com/feature...-transmission/

As for the uniqueness of the transmissions:
"Companies legally can develop hardware together as long as they part ways to manufacture and tune it, as GM and Ford say they will."
https://www.usatoday.com/story/money...ller%20engines.

Honestly I thought we'd all covered this pretty well, years ago.
But I digress.

[FarmerFran]

Originally Posted by crysalis_01

A few things are incorrect in your statement.

1. Ford didn't develop the rwd 9sp from the 10sp. Rather they took gm's fwd 9sp and developed a fwd 8sp.

And

2. "Sources say GM is leading development of a fwd nine-speed and Ford is spearheading work on a rwd 10-speed."
https://www.autoweek.com/news/a19326...transmissions/


"This new 10-speed rear-drive transmission is the result of collaboration between Ford and General Motors, although Ford had the engineering lead on it. The companies also are jointly developing a nine-speed transverse automatic for front-drive cars and crossovers; GM is leading the engineering on that effort."
https://www.caranddriver.com/feature...-transmission/

As for the uniqueness of the transmissions:
"Companies legally can develop hardware together as long as they part ways to manufacture and tune it, as GM and Ford say they will."
https://www.usatoday.com/story/money...ller%20engines.

Honestly I thought we'd all covered this pretty well, years ago.
But I digress.

And even after all that the ZF 8 is still better.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by crysalis_01

A few things are incorrect in your statement.

1. Ford didn't develop the rwd 9sp from the 10sp. Rather they took gm's fwd 9sp and developed a fwd 8sp.

And

2. "Sources say GM is leading development of a fwd nine-speed and Ford is spearheading work on a rwd 10-speed."
https://www.autoweek.com/news/a19326...-transmissions/


"This new 10-speed rear-drive transmission is the result of collaboration between Ford and General Motors, although Ford had the engineering lead on it. The companies also are jointly developing a nine-speed transverse automatic for front-drive cars and crossovers; GM is leading the engineering on that effort."
https://www.caranddriver.com/feature...-transmission/

As for the uniqueness of the transmissions:
"Companies legally can develop hardware together as long as they part ways to manufacture and tune it, as GM and Ford say they will."
https://www.usatoday.com/story/money...ller%20engines.

Honestly I thought we'd all covered this pretty well, years ago.
But I digress.

The parts in bold are exactly my point. The 10-speed they developed jointly with Ford leading the development is the 10-speed in the trucks. The 10-speed in the ZL1 was developed by GM without Ford’s knowledge and totally preempted Ford’s intent to have the Raptor be the debut vehicle for the 10-speed.

[Joshinator99]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

The parts in bold are exactly my point. The 10-speed they developed jointly with Ford leading the development is the 10-speed in the trucks. The 10-speed in the ZL1 was developed by GM without Ford’s knowledge and totally preempted Ford’s intent to have the Raptor be the debut vehicle for the 10-speed.

GM got WAY more mileage out of Ford’s 10L80 design than they did from their own 10L90. That 10L80 is in all the V8 Silverados to this day! Massive volume! Not to mention Tahoes, Yukons, ‘19-up SS Camaros, etc. Whereas the 10L90 only got ZL1 and a few Caddy models of use….tiny volume in comparison. Not trashing the 10L90 as it was/is solid, but it’s obvious that GM loved the 10L80 design from Ford more than their own 10L90, otherwise the 10L90 would have gotten the nod on the mainstream product offerings.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by Joshinator99

GM got WAY more mileage out of Ford’s 10L80 design than they did from their own 10L90. That 10L80 is in all the V8 Silverados to this day! Massive volume! Not to mention Tahoes, Yukons, ‘19-up SS Camaros, etc. Whereas the 10L90 only got ZL1 and a few Caddy models of use….tiny volume in comparison. Not trashing the 10L90 as it was/is solid, but it’s obvious that GM loved the 10L80 design from Ford more than their own 10L90, otherwise the 10L90 would have gotten the nod on the mainstream product offerings.

What you don’t get is that the 10L80 wasn’t something Ford did and came to GM to share their homework. The engineers from both companies were in the same room discussing the details. Ford had the lead but both companies were present. Ford was Patrick Mahomes, GM was Travis Kelce. I wasn’t in the room, but I was in the building and I know a number of people who were in the room. I know how much they put into making all variants of the GM version of the 10AT work.

This is not the first time GM and Ford have worked on transmissions together. The Ford FWD 6AT was an example of GM sharing the homework with Ford and Ford tweaking it to make it their own. At the same time GM developed RWD 5AT and 6AT for BMW.

The RWD 10 and the FWD 9 (8) were both better examples of both companies contributing strongly. If the FWD 6AT was 85/15, the RWD 10 was 40/60 and the FWD 9 (8) was 55/45.

[Joshinator99]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

What you don’t get is that the 10L80 wasn’t something Ford did and came to GM to share their homework. The engineers from both companies were in the same room discussing the details. Ford had the lead but both companies were present. Ford was Patrick Mahomes, GM was Travis Kelce. I wasn’t in the room, but I was in the building and I know a number of people who were in the room. I know how much they put into making all variants of the GM version of the 10AT work.

This is not the first time GM and Ford have worked on transmissions together. The Ford FWD 6AT was an example of GM sharing the homework with Ford and Ford tweaking it to make it their own. At the same time GM developed RWD 5AT and 6AT for BMW.

The RWD 10 and the FWD 9 (8) were both better examples of both companies contributing strongly. If the FWD 6AT was 85/15, the RWD 10 was 40/60 and the FWD 9 (8) was 55/45.

I DO get that. What YOU don’t apparently want to accept is that Ford took the lead on the 10 speed project, NOT GM. It’s considered by all to be Ford’s 10-speed, not GM’s. Your claim that GM was first to market was laughable since that 10L90 transmission is seeing virtually no usage and will have the plug pulled soon. Why is that? I already told you.

GM took the lead on the 9 speed transmission that Ford said “No Thanks” to. While both engineering teams worked on the 10L80/10R80 together, there is a reason it’s considered Ford’s 10-speed. That’s because they, FORD, lead the charge. Please stop with the revisionist history. And FWIW, I feel GM is a much better engineering company than Ford is! This is just one of those rare times when GM didn’t get the drop on Ford.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

Not true. GM and Ford collaborated on the design and development of a RWD 10-speed and a FWD 9-speed. Ford took the lead on 10–speed development but each company was allowed to develop their own variants. That’s why GM was able to develop the 10L80 without Ford’s knowledge and introduce it before Ford debuted their 10-speed in the Raptor. Likewise, Ford was able to develop an 8-speed version of the jointly developed 9-speed without needing to get “approval” from GM.

I was in Product Portfolio Planning when all this happened. In fact, I was touring a bunch of GM execs through the North American International Auto Show and when I showed them the Raptor and explained that it would be first to market with the jointly developed 10-speed, Al O pulled me off to the side and said “don’t tell anybody, but we’re gonna beat them to market with the 10-speed in the ZL1”

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

The parts in bold are exactly my point. The 10-speed they developed jointly with Ford leading the development is the 10-speed in the trucks. The 10-speed in the ZL1 was developed by GM without Ford’s knowledge and totally preempted Ford’s intent to have the Raptor be the debut vehicle for the 10-speed.

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

What you don’t get is that the 10L80 wasn’t something Ford did and came to GM to share their homework. The engineers from both companies were in the same room discussing the details. Ford had the lead but both companies were present. Ford was Patrick Mahomes, GM was Travis Kelce. I wasn’t in the room, but I was in the building and I know a number of people who were in the room. I know how much they put into making all variants of the GM version of the 10AT work.

This is not the first time GM and Ford have worked on transmissions together. The Ford FWD 6AT was an example of GM sharing the homework with Ford and Ford tweaking it to make it their own. At the same time GM developed RWD 5AT and 6AT for BMW.

The RWD 10 and the FWD 9 (8) were both better examples of both companies contributing strongly. If the FWD 6AT was 85/15, the RWD 10 was 40/60 and the FWD 9 (8) was 55/45.

Originally Posted by Joshinator99

I DO get that. What YOU don’t apparently want to accept is that Ford took the lead on the 10 speed project, NOT GM. It’s considered by all to be Ford’s 10-speed, not GM’s. Your claim that GM was first to market was laughable since that 10L90 transmission is seeing virtually no usage and will have the plug pulled soon. Why is that? I already told you.

GM took the lead on the 9 speed transmission that Ford said “No Thanks” to. While both engineering teams worked on the 10L80/10R80 together, there is a reason it’s considered Ford’s 10-speed. That’s because they, FORD, lead the charge. Please stop with the revisionist history. And FWIW, I feel GM is a much better engineering company than Ford is! This is just one of those rare times when GM didn’t get the drop on Ford.

Umm hmmm. Nowhere have I ever given Ford credit for leading the development. Except maybe all the stuff highlighted in RED

[Joshinator99]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

Umm hmmm. Nowhere have I ever given Ford credit for leading the development. Except maybe all the stuff highlighted in RED

Touché!

[KingLT1]

Originally Posted by Joshinator99

GM got WAY more mileage out of Ford’s 10L80 design than they did from their own 10L90. That 10L80 is in all the V8 Silverados to this day! Massive volume! Not to mention Tahoes, Yukons, ‘19-up SS Camaros, etc. Whereas the 10L90 only got ZL1 and a few Caddy models of use….tiny volume in comparison. Not trashing the 10L90 as it was/is solid, but it’s obvious that GM loved the 10L80 design from Ford more than their own 10L90, otherwise the 10L90 would have gotten the nod on the mainstream product offerings.

Which doesn't make sense because the 10L90 is a better transmission. I wonder if the 10l80 was used due to lower cost to manufacture?