[arpad_m]

Throttle House reviewed the 2024 GT in their usual fair and square manner, and I can't help but feel that Ford at least did something over the years...

...you know, things like taking a page or two from the superior competition, building them it into their platform, devising and releasing regular upgrades... basically, they care about their nameplate and their customers. Yeah, the price went up, but then so did it for everything else in this segment and beyond. I'll never buy a Mustang due to some aspects they will never fix, but again, at least Ford did put in the effort, which is very commendable.

[N Camarolina]

I guess it depends what perspective you take.

Ford did introduce improvements over the years, but that may be because they were running behind the Camaro in chassis, brakes, trans, interior, and features. The G6 was so far advanced in it's offering in 2016 that GM didn't need to do anything to stay ahead (if not in units sold, then at least in performance and features). Heck, even now, the Mustang still doesn't offer a heads up display or PTM modes, and (IMO) the interior is still inferior.

[N Camarolina]

I guess it depends what perspective you take.

Ford did introduce improvements over the years, but that may be because they were running behind the Camaro in chassis, brakes, trans, interior, and features. The G6 was so far advanced in it's offering in 2016 that GM didn't need to do anything to stay ahead (if not in units sold, then at least in performance and features). Heck, even now, the Mustang still doesn't offer a heads up display or PTM modes, and (IMO) the interior is still inferior.

[arpad_m]

Originally Posted by N Camarolina

I guess it depends what perspective you take.

Ford did introduce improvements over the years, but that may be because they were running behind the Camaro in chassis, brakes, trans, interior, and features. The G6 was so far advanced in it's offering in 2016 that GM didn't need to do anything to stay ahead (if not in units sold, then at least in performance and features). Heck, even now, the Mustang still doesn't offer a heads up display or PTM modes, and (IMO) the interior is still inferior.

Yeah, they are still behind in many ways, which is a testament to the 6th gen output from Al Oppenheiser's team.

However, my point is GM doesn't give a crap whereas Ford is listening to the market, watching the competition, inching forward, you know, business as it should be, which in turn means GM is building resentment against them while Ford is building a muscle car platform that will continue to live. Big difference unfortunately, regardless of technical quality.

[Joshinator99]

Originally Posted by N Camarolina

I guess it depends what perspective you take.

Ford did introduce improvements over the years, but that may be because they were running behind the Camaro in chassis, brakes, trans, interior, and features. The G6 was so far advanced in it's offering in 2016 that GM didn't need to do anything to stay ahead (if not in units sold, then at least in performance and features). Heck, even now, the Mustang still doesn't offer a heads up display or PTM modes, and (IMO) the interior is still inferior.

Disagree 100%. The Mustang interior has been better since 2018, and really jumped ahead in 2022. Real A/C heats, better visibility, and a beautiful big driver display that is fully customizable. Not to mention real-time IAT and wideband readings right at your fingertips. Looks like the majority of the buying market agrees with my assessment too since the sales race was a bloodbath for GM. I love my Camaro, but need to be realistic about why it didn’t sell. In regards to the trans, you realize GM used Ford’s 10 speed design for the 10L80…right?

Originally Posted by arpad_m

Yeah, they are still behind in many ways, which is a testament to the 6th gen output from Al Oppenheiser's team.

However, my point is GM doesn't give a crap whereas Ford is listening to the market, watching the competition, inching forward, you know, business as it should be, which in turn means GM is building resentment against them while Ford is building a muscle car platform that will continue to live. Big difference unfortunately, regardless of technical quality.

Well said. Camaro has a fantastic chassis which is strong, reasonably light, and easy to work on. Some easy upgrades over the years would have made the Camaro continue to be attractive. GM didn’t care and Ford does…at least as of right now.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by Joshinator99

Disagree 100%. The Mustang interior has been better since 2018, and really jumped ahead in 2022. Real A/C heats, better visibility, and a beautiful big driver display that is fully customizable. Not to mention real-time IAT and wideband readings right at your fingertips. Looks like the majority of the buying market agrees with my assessment too since the sales race was a bloodbath for GM. I love my Camaro, but need to be realistic about why it didn’t sell. In regards to the trans, you realize GM used Ford’s 10 speed design for the 10L80…right?



Well said. Camaro has a fantastic chassis which is strong, reasonably light, and easy to work on. Some easy upgrades over the years would have made the Camaro continue to be attractive. GM didn’t care and Ford does…at least as of right now.

Not true. GM and Ford collaborated on the design and development of a RWD 10-speed and a FWD 9-speed. Ford took the lead on 10–speed development but each company was allowed to develop their own variants. That’s why GM was able to develop the 10L80 without Ford’s knowledge and introduce it before Ford debuted their 10-speed in the Raptor. Likewise, Ford was able to develop an 8-speed version of the jointly developed 9-speed without needing to get “approval” from GM.

I was in Product Portfolio Planning when all this happened. In fact, I was touring a bunch of GM execs through the North American International Auto Show and when I showed them the Raptor and explained that it would be first to market with the jointly developed 10-speed, Al O pulled me off to the side and said “don’t tell anybody, but we’re gonna beat them to market with the 10-speed in the ZL1”

[m6-lt1]

Originally Posted by Joshinator99

Disagree 100%. The Mustang interior has been better since 2018, and really jumped ahead in 2022. Real A/C heats, better visibility, and a beautiful big driver display that is fully customizable. Not to mention real-time IAT and wideband readings right at your fingertips. Looks like the majority of the buying market agrees with my assessment too since the sales race was a bloodbath for GM. I love my Camaro, but need to be realistic about why it didn’t sell. In regards to the trans, you realize GM used Ford’s 10 speed design for the 10L80…right?

I both agree and disagree with your assessment on the interior. They both do certain things well and other things not well. For example , you brought up real cooled seats. That’s great except you can’t get heated and cooled recaros in the mustang. No hud in the s550 but they do have the fully digital dash option. In the end, interior preference is all subjective. For example I like the Camaros cluster more than any of the mustang clusters. I like the busier center console of the mustang more than the Camaros less busy look. I think the recaros look cooler in the mustang.

I’m pretty sure when the poster above brought up the trans, he meant the manual in which case ford is 100% inferior.

[Joshinator99]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

Not true. GM and Ford collaborated on the design and development of a RWD 10-speed and a FWD 9-speed. Ford took the lead on 10–speed development but each company was allowed to develop their own variants. That’s why GM was able to develop the 10L80 without Ford’s knowledge and introduce it before Ford debuted their 10-speed in the Raptor. Likewise, Ford was able to develop an 8-speed version of the jointly developed 9-speed without needing to get “approval” from GM.

I was in Product Portfolio Planning when all this happened. In fact, I was touring a bunch of GM execs through the North American International Auto Show and when I showed them the Raptor and explained that it would be first to market with the jointly developed 10-speed, Al O pulled me off to the side and said “don’t tell anybody, but we’re gonna beat them to market with the 10-speed in the ZL1”

I feel like you’re whitewashing the fact that Ford did most of the 10 speed heavy lifting (they had the engineering lead on the 10 speed project: https://www.caranddriver.com/feature...-transmission/) while GM did the 9 speed that Ford didn’t want. And either way, for the last poster to say the GM trans was better was silly since it’s virtually identical.

[Joshinator99]

Originally Posted by m6-lt1

I both agree and disagree with your assessment on the interior. They both do certain things well and other things not well. For example , you brought up real cooled seats. That’s great except you can’t get heated and cooled recaros in the mustang. No hud in the s550 but they do have the fully digital dash option. In the end, interior preference is all subjective. For example I like the Camaros cluster more than any of the mustang clusters. I like the busier center console of the mustang more than the Camaros less busy look. I think the recaros look cooler in the mustang.

I’m pretty sure when the poster above brought up the trans, he meant the manual in which case ford is 100% inferior.

As the current owner of both cars in this discussion I’ve had plenty of seat time in both and will disagree respectfully, but agree that it is subjective. That said, there’s a reason why Mustang kicked Camaro butt in sales big time and interior design was a big portion of that for the average muscle car enthusiast.

[N Camarolina]

A few points:

1) I was referring the manual trans, not the auto. The M6 in the Mustang for most of the S550s lifespan was not a Tremec, but an inferior product. Now, finally, at least in the Mach 1 it's a Tremec, albeit a slightly lesser one meant to handle less torque

2) The interior is completely subjective, but I've always liked the Camaro's (2SS) better. Don't even get me started about the two huge tablets they use now that look like afterthoughts in terms of integrating with the dash

3) You'll note in my previous post that I specifically did not compare the two cars based on sales and acknowledged that Mustang wins there. However, the consensus as to why the sales are better with the Mustang is largely attributed to better greenhouse cabin shape (visibility) and more usable trunk space in the Mustang.

GM could not have improved the greenhouse without changing the entire Alpha chassis, which effectively changes the entire vehicle to a new generation and may have reduced the stiffness (handling superiority) that we love about the Camaro. GM, apparently didn't to make that investment.

Perhaps GM could have changed rear trunk opening and made more like the mustang. I'm just not sure how extensive the changes would have needed to be and if it would significantly impacted chassis rigidity.

4) Your ignoring the lack of HUD on the Mustang, which is a game changer for those of us who have it on the Camaro. I absolutely love not needing to take my eyes off the road.

[crysalis_01]

Dark Horse R has debuted... and it is a pricey piece of track equipment.



https://www.motortrend.com/news/ford...t-look-review/

[FarmerFran]

no Vert in power form. Such a shame.

[Kamero6]

It is the last muscle car we have left, I hope it lasts for another decade.

[FarmerFran]

Originally Posted by Kamero6

It is the last muscle car we have left, I hope it lasts for another decade.

Ford says 2030 with a refresh in 2027.