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Old 05-02-2023, 05:42 AM   #673
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Originally Posted by FarmerFran View Post
Didn't a bunch of MFGs get in big trouble about range in ICE and have to pay out? Hyudai comes to mind.
Uncle Sam won’t let that happen in this case as anything that supports the green narrative is a ‘good’ thing.
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Old 05-02-2023, 10:51 AM   #674
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The article says that the plant is for cylindrical cells that better package in lower profile configurations and will be produced with a chemistry that produces higher performing energy dispersion. Low profile + high performance…I can think of two cars that fit that description. Corvette and Camaro.

For sports fans in the room, my understanding is the location will be the space where the Palace of Auburn Hills once stood. Home of the Bad Boy Detroit Pistons.
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Maybe this is what GM is banking on; That the younger generation may not care so much. Fine, but what we (I) mean by compromise is that the future Camaro generation will not mean or perform or sound the same way as its forebearer. You can make a car handle and even accelerate, but can you do this in the style and passion as the originals? It would be a farce and a sad state of affairs to even try to mimic the sound and feel of an original Camaro.
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Okay. Whether or not this reincarnation comes in a few years could be anyone's guess. My advice is that if the car will be different in its powertrain, then it should not try to copy or imitate the past Camaros. It should be different and new in its personality.
With the excuse of getting rid of the Bolt because the batteries it used aren't as good as Ultium, and now Ultium packs are passe already and now these cylinder ones are better, this whole battery business just doesn't do it for me. Battery performance and design is as boring as hell. There just isn't that much to get excited about. The differences just don't seem exciting. Even the touted 0-60 times are played out.

I think the differences in any Corvette, Camaro, Blazer, etc., will be mostly styling only. EVs are all basically the same, and performance differences seem negligible with only artificially installed software and intentionally reduced characteristics. Hell, the rate it's going, your new EV will be outdated before it's even delivered.

But, whatever. A Camaro top-hat with a little different battery...meh. We'll see. It seems EVs will be hard-pressed to come up with any real differences unless you are a hard-core motorhead, er, make that a battery-head...lol
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Old 05-02-2023, 11:14 AM   #675
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This breaks down pretty well how awesome EVs will be for those of us in the US before it's all said and done. Better assimilate and cozy up to the Chinese.

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Old 05-02-2023, 03:01 PM   #676
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With the excuse of getting rid of the Bolt because the batteries it used aren't as good as Ultium, and now Ultium packs are passe already and now these cylinder ones are better, this whole battery business just doesn't do it for me. Battery performance and design is as boring as hell. There just isn't that much to get excited about. The differences just don't seem exciting. Even the touted 0-60 times are played out.

I think the differences in any Corvette, Camaro, Blazer, etc., will be mostly styling only. EVs are all basically the same, and performance differences seem negligible with only artificially installed software and intentionally reduced characteristics. Hell, the rate it's going, your new EV will be outdated before it's even delivered.

But, whatever. A Camaro top-hat with a little different battery...meh. We'll see. It seems EVs will be hard-pressed to come up with any real differences unless you are a hard-core motorhead, er, make that a battery-head...lol
I’ve never heard from anybody who knows the situation that Bolt was being dropped because the batteries aren’t as good as Ultium. It is true that they aren’t, because the current Ultium batteries are better than the LG. And the 2nd Gen Ultium are better than 1st Gen, but they aren’t dropping vehicle programs because of it. The two primary reasons for dropping Bolt are
  1. It’s time to start renovating the plant to make Silverado EV and Sierra EV. Similar reason as timing to drop Camaro. LGR has to be converted to produce Corvette EV variants.
  2. When Equinox EV comes to market, the price ladder overlaps with Bolt. Fully contented Bolt costs more than lightly contented Equinox EV. So Bolt goes away for a while and focus will be on Equinox EV. Bolt may come back, with or without a different name on the Ultium architecture. Which actually points out a 3rd reason (related to the cost overlap)
  3. Bolt is built on the old Gamma ICE architecture. GM has apparently decided to put that architecture out to pasture and build whatever the eventual Bolt replacement will be off of the Ultium platform.

As for the cylindrical batteries being better…I don’t think that’s a point anybody was ever trying to make. Just like OHC engines have different characteristics than OHV engines, pouch batteries, prismatic batteries, and cylindrical batteries all have different characteristics in terms of how they package as well as how rapidly and/or efficiently they discharge energy.
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Old 05-02-2023, 06:08 PM   #677
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Some current kinks with EV public charging that not many think about:

https://www.latimes.com/opinion/stor...-in-california
Interesting experience. And likely a very common occurrence. That said, the author is further proof of my theory that everyone who has an EV thinks they are in some drag car masterpiece. They are fooled by the instant torque and forget that only goes so far. He said “I love that it has so much pickup that I can easily blow past gas-powered muscle cars if I want to.” I assumed he had a Tesla 3 performance or something…nope, a fwd 201 hp Kia Niro EV. Sheesh.
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Old 05-02-2023, 06:42 PM   #678
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Interesting experience. And likely a very common occurrence. That said, the author is further proof of my theory that everyone who has an EV thinks they are in some drag car masterpiece. They are fooled by the instant torque and forget that only goes so far. He said “I love that it has so much pickup that I can easily blow past gas-powered muscle cars if I want to.” I assumed he had a Tesla 3 performance or something…nope, a fwd 201 hp Kia Niro EV. Sheesh.
See how that Kia does on a 60-130 pull. lol
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Old 05-02-2023, 07:04 PM   #679
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I believe that most people care about stoplight to stoplight so most are not interested in 60-XXX pulls.

I also, honestly believe the powers that be are finding ways to restrict highspeed cars on the interstate/highway/ whatever you want to call it. EV is a very easy first step. Now I am not saying they are pissing in your wheaties, I honestly believe they are trying to make it safer.

OK, Imagine this... Highways that everyone is traveling the same speeds in the same lanes, and moving out of the way for merging or emergency cars. I bet you 1000% you get there faster. Fun, NO. But the reality is that us as humans start to move faster and faster, farther and farther at life.
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Old 05-02-2023, 08:23 PM   #680
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Originally Posted by Martinjlm View Post
I’ve never heard from anybody who knows the situation that Bolt was being dropped because the batteries aren’t as good as Ultium. It is true that they aren’t, because the current Ultium batteries are better than the LG. And the 2nd Gen Ultium are better than 1st Gen, but they aren’t dropping vehicle programs because of it. The two primary reasons for dropping Bolt are
  1. It’s time to start renovating the plant to make Silverado EV and Sierra EV. Similar reason as timing to drop Camaro. LGR has to be converted to produce Corvette EV variants.
  2. When Equinox EV comes to market, the price ladder overlaps with Bolt. Fully contented Bolt costs more than lightly contented Equinox EV. So Bolt goes away for a while and focus will be on Equinox EV. Bolt may come back, with or without a different name on the Ultium architecture. Which actually points out a 3rd reason (related to the cost overlap)
  3. Bolt is built on the old Gamma ICE architecture. GM has apparently decided to put that architecture out to pasture and build whatever the eventual Bolt replacement will be off of the Ultium platform.

As for the cylindrical batteries being better…I don’t think that’s a point anybody was ever trying to make. Just like OHC engines have different characteristics than OHV engines, pouch batteries, prismatic batteries, and cylindrical batteries all have different characteristics in terms of how they package as well as how rapidly and/or efficiently they discharge energy.
The Bolt is being dropped because of the Ultium battery. The Silverado uses one and the Bolt doesn't.

Interesting concept..."the price ladder overlap"....The lowest priced vehicle will always be at the bottom rung and the first to be eliminated. Great for company profits...not so much for the consumer as witnessed by the end of the Bolt in favor of the higher priced and more profitable Silverado.

Low cost affordable EVs will be a low priority to produce , contrary to what we have been led to believe.
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Old 05-02-2023, 08:30 PM   #681
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I believe that most people care about stoplight to stoplight so most are not interested in 60-XXX pulls.

I also, honestly believe the powers that be are finding ways to restrict highspeed cars on the interstate/highway/ whatever you want to call it. EV is a very easy first step. Now I am not saying they are pissing in your wheaties, I honestly believe they are trying to make it safer.

OK, Imagine this... Highways that everyone is traveling the same speeds in the same lanes, and moving out of the way for merging or emergency cars. I bet you 1000% you get there faster. Fun, NO. But the reality is that us as humans start to move faster and faster, farther and farther at life.
A well intentioned sentiment, but I don't believe it to be accurate. Highways and Interstates have always been considered safer. The stoplight to stoplight scenario is considerably more dangerous, deadly and unsafe. I recall Interstates to being deemed "The safest roads in America"...high speeds and all.

Perhaps Interstate travel and highways offer more safety with EVs, as they won't be able to travel as much and will spend a considerable amount of their travel time stopped at a charging station.
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Old 05-02-2023, 10:20 PM   #682
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See how that Kia does on a 60-130 pull. lol
Ha, not well. C&D tested a 2020 (presumably about the same year as the author of the article) and it did 0-60 in 6.2, 1/4 mile in 14.9 @ 94 mph, and 60-100 mph in 10.9 seconds (that's one of my favorite splits since it's a bit more realistic for a typical short highway pull). For low powered cars like this, assuming it can even go 130 mph, the 60-130 mph takes 2.3-2.6 times longer than the 60-100 mph (and probably more for a low powered EV). So that would put the Niro EV in the 25-28+ second range 60-130. A 2016 V6 1LT RS M6 did much better. It went 0-60 in 5.1 seconds and 1/4 mile was 13.7 @ 103 mph. The 60-100 split was 7.9 seconds. Significantly quicker than 10.9. Not sure on the 60-130 but probably around 19 seconds.

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I believe that most people care about stoplight to stoplight so most are not interested in 60-XXX pulls.
Yeah, except even the Niro is slow; 0-60 in 6.2 seconds isn't ruling the streets or even beating a V6 Camaro or Ecoboost Mustang.
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Old 05-03-2023, 08:27 AM   #683
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With the excuse of getting rid of the Bolt because the batteries it used aren't as good as Ultium, and now Ultium packs are passe already and now these cylinder ones are better, this whole battery business just doesn't do it for me. Battery performance and design is as boring as hell. There just isn't that much to get excited about. The differences just don't seem exciting. Even the touted 0-60 times are played out.

I think the differences in any Corvette, Camaro, Blazer, etc., will be mostly styling only. EVs are all basically the same, and performance differences seem negligible with only artificially installed software and intentionally reduced characteristics. Hell, the rate it's going, your new EV will be outdated before it's even delivered.

But, whatever. A Camaro top-hat with a little different battery...meh. We'll see. It seems EVs will be hard-pressed to come up with any real differences unless you are a hard-core motorhead, er, make that a battery-head...lol
To this I say let the scenario play out. It is ashame (if this is true) that the Bolt will be cancelled. I've driven one, and to be honest it is a well composed compact car that happens to be electric. Composed as a matter of it being good basic transportation. I still do not believe that the car buying public is ready to give up their reliable Honda, Toyota and Japanese cars and trucks, and especially the domestic pick up truck and large SUVs. The demand of the buying public will ultimately dictate what car manufacturers will produce.
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Old 05-03-2023, 09:28 AM   #684
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To this I say let the scenario play out. It is ashame (if this is true) that the Bolt will be cancelled. I've driven one, and to be honest it is a well composed compact car that happens to be electric. Composed as a matter of it being good basic transportation. I still do not believe that the car buying public is ready to give up their reliable Honda, Toyota and Japanese cars and trucks, and especially the domestic pick up truck and large SUVs. The demand of the buying public will ultimately dictate what car manufacturers will produce.


Not in the case of the Bolt! It's the lowest priced EV in the US and qualifies for the full 7.5K tax credit. It is at the height of it's popularity and production.

Raw greed to produce more Silverados that "require" the Bolt to be eliminated is a total FU by the automaker. Bolt production should be ramped up. The geniuses at gm didn't know it was on an old platform, or that the plant used to build it was going to be re-purposed? All seemed like a good idea initially! This looks like a corporate disaster for which someone should get fired instead of being portrayed as something planned all along.

The cancelled Bolt is a telling incident. How long did we hear the Camaro would be cancelled due to lack of sales, or would have continued on if it sold better? The opposite was the case with the Bolt. The noble little Bolt will be remembered as the golden egg killed by the greedy goose. For the EV transition, this shows to me again that it is a total scam subsidized by the tax-payer and gm is a willing partner. GM is throwing away a chance to be the hero with the lowest priced EV built in the US. I don't believe they care what any customer thinks. The EV transition will leave you no other choice and be intentionally way more expensive and costly to the public.
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Old 05-03-2023, 09:38 AM   #685
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You guys do realize there's a replacement inbound for Bolt on Ultium right? It's not like GM is completely abandoning the segment and price point.



This all just seems like typical knee-jerk reactions from people who don't know all the facts.
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Old 05-03-2023, 09:47 AM   #686
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You guys do realize there's a replacement inbound for Bolt on Ultium right? It's not like GM is completely abandoning the segment and price point.



This all just seems like typical knee-jerk reactions from people who don't know all the facts.
The knee-jerk was gm cancelling the Bolt. Anything "inbound" is likely years away and a 30K Equinox might be in the same "price-point" to gm but not to the customer. The gm customer is viewed as a mushroom...kept in the dark and fed...etc., etc....
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