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Old 09-19-2019, 01:44 PM   #71
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I love how all the animosity in here is from middle class people tearing into middle class people. Both sides have their suckage, but at the end of the day they both need each other.


Try supporting the guys and gals that are on strike. Drop off some donuts, take them coffee. Go hang out with them.


Take away the unions, the good or the bad ones and watch what happens.
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Old 09-19-2019, 01:49 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by Lafourche1 View Post
https://www1.salary.com/GENERAL-MOTO...-Salaries.html

I'll simply state again that GM made $11 Billion in pre-tax profit.

https://www.glassdoor.com/Hourly-Pay..._D_KO18,38.htm

$23,000,000 ($23 million) per year versus $20 per hour average. Seriously folks.
Mary Barra could divide her total compensation equally among everyone else at GM and for someone working 40 hour weeks it'd end up netting them a whopping extra 6 or 7 cents an hour, $130 or so over the course of a year. Add up all those other executives' pay and it's around 16 cents an hour, $300 per year.

I don't know about you, but neither number is what I'd reasonably call the difference between an average worker making it or not - it'd buy me around an eighth to a third of a single month's mortgage payment.

These ideas about executive pay taking from "the workers" (executives, managers, and non-union engineers are being all workers too) and holding them back from prosperity don't stand up to even casual examination, or 5th grade math.

By the way, apply that average to all 170,000+ GM employees and you get over $7 BILLION in labor costs. GM's net profit after taxes and labor and other costs is only a billion more than that.
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Old 09-19-2019, 01:54 PM   #73
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I'm not a labor expert, I don't know anything about the UAW or any Union's inter workings or how good or bad each one might be. I'm curious though why such animosity towards people joining one and having the ability to sit down at the table with "management" and fight for better wages / benefits / working environment? Why is there such disdain for this concept? If the Union was so bad for the union members, THEY have the right to dissolve the UNION by majority vote.

If you think they are getting too much, then the question or disdain shouldn't be about why THEY are getting something that you are not, the question should be why can't you get what they have?

Do we hold the same disdain for other unions, like Police and Firefighters Unions? What is the criteria for one being good and one being bad?

just my 2 cents.
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Old 09-19-2019, 01:59 PM   #74
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KirkH, I’m not complaining about what I’m making now and never have. I’m glad you started businesses after you retired. Seems as if you are very fortunate to have made enough money to do so!
Cool, I wasn't trying to say that you were, just that those union people were saying the same thing (relatively.)

I was able to start my businesses because my health insurance is paid for by the state of KY for my 27 years of underpaid and under appreciated critical work. I believe I could have done this 30 years ago if we had universal health insurance coverage here, like in most of the rest of the world.

But that's another topic.
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Old 09-19-2019, 02:23 PM   #75
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Maybe if GM and other automakers weren’t union then trucks and cars wouldn’t be so expensive and every year the prices wouldn’t increase at least $2000 to $3000! Foreign auto companies that have located here are non union so why can’t domestic companies do the same?
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Old 09-19-2019, 02:28 PM   #76
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Maybe if GM and other automakers weren’t union then trucks and cars wouldn’t be so expensive and every year the prices wouldn’t increase at least $2000 to $3000! Foreign auto companies that have located here are non union so why can’t domestic companies do the same?

The biggest single component of car price increase are Obama related due to the 2012 mileage standards imposed(that Bush would not sign for good reason). Just another government lie for all of us to pay for.
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Old 09-19-2019, 02:29 PM   #77
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$30/hr is $57K a year based on a 40 hour work week. I am not going to argue they are not being paid a decent wage. But as I stated above, it's deceitful to quote a $60+/hr rate that includes benefits( which is NOT compensation) making it seem they are being paid six figures.

My $37K a year example applies to my company where they try to advertise in their recruiting that a new guy can make $80,000 a year first year, but that includes benefits, hotels, etc. Which is a deceitful recruitment tactic. That stuff is not compensation and a new guy can expect to make $37,000 his first year.
I dont know what school of math you attended, but in the USA a 40hr work week is 2080 hours a year. 2080 hours times $30 per hour is $62,400.
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Old 09-19-2019, 02:31 PM   #78
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Maybe if GM and other automakers weren’t union then trucks and cars wouldn’t be so expensive and every year the prices wouldn’t increase at least $2000 to $3000! Foreign auto companies that have located here are non union so why can’t domestic companies do the same?

Cause it is inflation, management trying to please shareholders/wall street causing it more? Our 2002 Chevy Suburban cost $40,000. In 2016 when they bought a new one, it cost $60,000. Sounds like a huge spike right? Well take 2001 money and adjust it.... Comes to be $54,000. Fast forward to today it is now $57,000.

But it's the same constant theme though. Want to buy products that is made in the US, but doesn't want to pay the money to make that a reality.

As mentioned before.... The companies pay the non-union plants well because of the threat of the union. Take that threat away, see wages go down.


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Originally Posted by TJay74 View Post
I dont know what school of math you attended, but in the USA a 40hr work week is 2080 hours a year. 2080 hours times $30 per hour is $62,400.
40*30=1200*4 weeks in a month= 4800*12 months= $57,600. But maybe I am doing the process wrong.....

EDIT: Definitely something wrong.... Considering there are 52 weeks in the year.
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Old 09-19-2019, 02:54 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by DenverTaco07 View Post
I'm not a labor expert, I don't know anything about the UAW or any Union's inter workings or how good or bad each one might be. I'm curious though why such animosity towards people joining one and having the ability to sit down at the table with "management" and fight for better wages / benefits / working environment? Why is there such disdain for this concept? If the Union was so bad for the union members, THEY have the right to dissolve the UNION by majority vote.

If you think they are getting too much, then the question or disdain shouldn't be about why THEY are getting something that you are not, the question should be why can't you get what they have?

Do we hold the same disdain for other unions, like Police and Firefighters Unions? What is the criteria for one being good and one being bad?

just my 2 cents.
I think that all depends on the situation/ what union it is. I don't dislike unions per say, but I do dislike the people that give unions bad name, or especially when something has to be done by a union employee - especially if it's something stupid
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Old 09-19-2019, 02:58 PM   #80
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There's such a unique duality that I see throughout this thread. Unions, for better or for worse, represent their work force. People on one end seem to think that the workers in the assembly line are paid too much as is, others think they're not paid enough, ultimately, the workers themselves would sure like more money, would they not? However, the consumer wants to pay less for more product. You can't have it both ways unless you start capping income for executives in all forms and distribute that profit more evenly among its workforce, research, development and legitimate costs of doing business. That's the only way you're going to get a vehicle for less money while the workers are getting better pay/benefits.

But that's never going to happen because people will cry foul and complain about socialism or something. But I see it all the time. I saw it in the government sector, I see it in the private sector all the time. Everyone wants to be paid more but wants to complain about other peoples pay and how much they have to pay to get items/goods/services. Until we relinquish some level of selfishness from someplace, no one will be happy and people will just continue to point the finger.
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Old 09-19-2019, 03:01 PM   #81
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You can't have it both ways unless you start capping income for executives in all forms and distribute that profit more evenly among its workforce, research, development and legitimate costs of doing business. That's the only way you're going to get a vehicle for less money while the workers are getting better pay/benefits.
Yes and that does not need to be mandated by government. It should be mandated by culture. It starts with companies that feel a civic responsibility, rather than solely servicing the shareholders.
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Old 09-19-2019, 03:04 PM   #82
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Yes and that does not need to be mandated by government. It should be mandated by culture. It starts with companies that feel a civic responsibility, rather than solely servicing the shareholders.
Let's be honest with ourselves, when is that going to happen? Do you really think that people will do that? What has stopped them from doing it already? I really don't think that executives are just going to start accepting less money in the general scope of business just to take care of their people. That's almost like implying that trickle down economics works.
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Old 09-19-2019, 03:33 PM   #83
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Look, you can do the math yourself. Even if you made the CEO work for free, took her annual $22,000,000 and divided it 100% equally among the 170,000 (according to Wikipedia as of last December) other GM workers, what does that gain you as one of the 170,000?
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Old 09-19-2019, 04:24 PM   #84
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Look, you can do the math yourself. Even if you made the CEO work for free, took her annual $22,000,000 and divided it 100% equally among the 170,000 (according to Wikipedia as of last December) other GM workers, what does that gain you as one of the 170,000?
$23,000,000

Is the CEO worth ~552 times the worth of the average GM employee?

Does she do 552 times the work on any given day?

I recommend Thomas Piketty’s Capital in the Twenty-First Century.

EDIT ADD: CEO Pay Has Grown 90 Times Faster than Typical Worker Pay Since 1978

https://www.epi.org/publication/ceo-...ay-since-1978/
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