[UnknownJinX]

Originally Posted by arpad_m

This is another very salient point here. Electric car production has a much higher carbon footprint than ICE, which takes several years of use to offset even according to EV proponents. Therefore, the shorter people keep these vehicles, the smaller their total footprint advantage, and it is actually negative during the first years of ownership.

Think about phones, new models come out more and more quickly, and people are trading in and replacing their phones at an ever higher frequency. A self-driving electric appliance is the same kind of good, it's much more expensive but still following the same consumption trends. More gizmos, more fart apps and online games, more frequent updates translate to shortening ownership.

Without denying any of the advantages of EVs, I'm not sure how this is supposed to work.

I think most products are getting less and less consumer-friendly in general. Laptops, for example, have been shifting towards soldered memory. Then there is the locked A10 transmission in Camaro.

In phones and laptops, components are integrated so they can be more compact. Maybe that will happen to EV as well, more non-replaceable parts to make them more compact.

And I have heard that a lot of end-of-lease BMW get transported to developing countries to get a lease on life. That could theoretically happen to EV as well, though that means these developing countries will have to have the infrastructure to digest the EV when they get "outdated" in developed countries.

[Petrol Head]

Originally Posted by UnknownJinX

That's leaning a little close to a conspiracy... Coming to an enthusiast forum for a low-volume sports/pony car to post EV stuff and you know how well that will end. If I were pushing EV, there are much better place for me to spend my money to pay someone to post.

But it does make sense. Where are you gonna find the most ardent internal combustion engine supporters? Probably on forums where the cars are sports cars or trucks and they all have V8 engines.

If you remember Austin Powers, I just have to ask: who does Number 3 work for?

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by arpad_m

This is another very salient point here. Electric car production has a much higher carbon footprint than ICE, which takes several years of use to offset even according to EV proponents. Therefore, the shorter people keep these vehicles, the smaller their total footprint advantage, and it is actually negative during the first years of ownership.

Think about phones, new models come out more and more quickly, and people are trading in and replacing their phones at an ever higher frequency. A self-driving electric appliance is the same kind of good, it's much more expensive but still following the same consumption trends. More gizmos, more fart apps and online games, more frequent updates translate to shortening ownership.

Without denying any of the advantages of EVs, I'm not sure how this is supposed to work.

You may want to 2nd check your logic on this one. If something has a higher carbon footprint to produce, you’d want it to last longer because making a replacement would increase the total carbon footprint. You’d want to delay the need to produce another. Then there’s the basic question...how do you know it has a higher carbon footprint to produce?

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by UnknownJinX

To be fair, for a family car or DD, having good low-end torque is a good feature.

Good low end torque is one thing. But when there's so much of it down low that the driver never needs to step very deep into the throttle to get it, perhaps not. Perfect for the non-enthusiast looking for a car that demands as little as possible from him, though.

That's why turbocharged cars are getting more and more commonplace.

Mainly because displacements are dropping but car weights (generally) are not. The ICE answer for replacing the torque lost in the displacement shuffle can only be positive intake manifold pressure by some means or other. It's a torque-per-liter thing where the NA engines work within a fairly narrow range of ft*lbs/liter while turbocharging need only dial up the boost.

We're on our second turbocharged car at this point. Truth be told, if I could have paired the 3.6L H6 with a MT in the first one (Subaru Legacy), we'd have ordered it that way instead of taking the 2.5L turbo-4 (the NA 2.5L was a non-starter from the get-go). Off boost, the 2.5T4 was softer-responding than the 2.5L NA car we also had at the time. The new car (the WRX), with dual-scroll, is much better but even that car can be caught off boost in normal driving.

It's more convenient for sure, but to some people that translates to boring because you don't have to "earn" it by revving.

Bingo.

Part of the fun of driving is doing your part to keep the engine running where strong enough response exists for the conditions of the moment.


Norm

[02blackss]

In many countries of the world, they are still hanging on to 80's and 90's cars making them last as long as possible. When I was in Poland a few years ago where my wife is from, I was in total disbelief with how many older Fiat's , Honda's and surprisingly quite a few domestic cars as well were on the road. Point is, until you force people to start buying these electric cars, people will not flock to the showrooms to buy them. Especially ones that people simply can not afford. Make a 25,000 dollar economy 4 door car to run back and forth with and I may consider it. Also, for the millions of people who live in areas where they need to park their cars on the streets, will there be city installed charging stations everywhere by the hundreds? Sorry but I just do not see it going over very well at all. The ICE market is saturated worldwide and people will continue to buy them used until they are outlawed. As far as the electric Camaro, I would love to see one, but I am quite happy with my 2021 LT1 and 2002 SS.

[UnknownJinX]

Originally Posted by Petrol Head

But it does make sense. Where are you gonna find the most ardent internal combustion engine supporters? Probably on forums where the cars are sports cars or trucks and they all have V8 engines.

If you remember Austin Powers, I just have to ask: who does Number 3 work for?

But sports car and truck forums are filled with people who don't support EV. At least it makes some sense on truck forums because I would imagine there are more people there than here.

Besides, forums are usually filled with enthusiasts which only represent a tiny fraction of car buyers. It's so much more effective and cheaper to just hire someone to spread a Facebook article to spread to the vast majority of non-enthusiasts out there.

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

You may want to 2nd check your logic on this one. If something has a higher carbon footprint to produce, you’d want it to last longer because making a replacement would increase the total carbon footprint. You’d want to delay the need to produce another. Then there’s the basic question...how do you know it has a higher carbon footprint to produce?

It's all about the moolah, man. No one actually cares about carbon footprint. Some people are just more open about it than others.

And it's common knowledge than EV pollutes more to produce, mainly due to batteries. The rest of an EV supposedly pollutes less to produce than an ICE car, but it's not like we are moving away from lithium ion anytime soon.

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

Good low end torque is one thing. But when there's so much of it down low that the driver never needs to step very deep into the throttle to get it, perhaps not. Perfect for the non-enthusiast looking for a car that demands as little as possible from him, though.

Mainly because displacements are dropping but car weights (generally) are not. The ICE answer for replacing the torque lost in the displacement shuffle can only be positive intake manifold pressure by some means or other. It's a torque-per-liter thing where the NA engines work within a fairly narrow range of ft*lbs/liter while turbocharging need only dial up the boost.

We're on our second turbocharged car at this point. Truth be told, if I could have paired the 3.6L H6 with a MT in the first one (Subaru Legacy), we'd have ordered it that way instead of taking the 2.5L turbo-4 (the NA 2.5L was a non-starter from the get-go). Off boost, the 2.5T4 was softer-responding than the 2.5L NA car we also had at the time. The new car (the WRX), with dual-scroll, is much better but even that car can be caught off boost in normal driving.

Bingo.

Part of the fun of driving is doing your part to keep the engine running where strong enough response exists for the conditions of the moment.


Norm

For a daily driver, I can deal with a turbocharged car for the most part. My friend's Mazda6 2.5T was a good DD in winter.

For a sports car, I really prefer an NA engine but that's becoming more and more difficult.

And the last part explains why we like driving manual trans a lot. It's our work to make sure the car responds the way it does, but most people just use cars as appliances. Unfortunate, but that applies to most other things in life.

[arpad_m]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

You may want to 2nd check your logic on this one. If something has a higher carbon footprint to produce, you’d want it to last longer because making a replacement would increase the total carbon footprint. You’d want to delay the need to produce another. Then there’s the basic question...how do you know it has a higher carbon footprint to produce?

Hmm, I thought that's exactly what I said. EVs start with a carbon handicap due to their higher footprint during manufacturing, which is then gradually offset during their lifetimes by their zero emission "at the tailpipe" and lower overall energy consumption for recharging.

However, if people keep buying a new EV every few years, this incentivizes higher production rates and thus increases the weight of this initial EV burden, even if the lifecycle of the vehicle is long (which remains to be seen btw, the used EV market isn't exactly blooming just yet).

As to the basic question, here's one quick example: https://youtu.be/6RhtiPefVzM

[cthulhucaller]

Originally Posted by Speak99

I know for a fact that there are people who are paid to post. There are a few here that are doing this. It always seems to be on the environmentalist/climate change/fossil fuel debates where these types try to influence the debate. There is big money involved in persuading peoples behavior and its clear here when they continue to post in a website dedicated to a certain behavior (love of their ICE vehicles).

Another explanation is that people like different things than other people like.

Camaros are just an area where people who like lots of different things intersect on this forum. I like the rumbling and the wrenching, but would be open to the crazy torgue and the software tweaking too. Just because people have the same car, they aren't going to have the same ideals.

I see opposition to new technology on a very regular basis at work, and have seen it all my life. I remember when fuel injection was the lame thing, and when they started to put computers in cars, everyone freaked out. Anyone here on this forum got past that. Computers in cars ended up being pretty badass. Most people that spent time getting a Quadrajet right, just to have it go wrong will join me on that view.

Camaros are cars, and no matter how they are powered, cars are going to have plenty of opportunities for wrench swinging, modifying, beautifying, and generally being loved by car guys. Whatever the car manufacturers try to send out as black boxes eventually get opened, tweaked, and manipulated by the spirited car guys, and that knowledge keeps on moving around in places like this.

"Stop liking what I don't like" is how we get ourselves into a lot of stupid positions throughout many aspects of our lives. Me? You can like whatever, but if you like some of the stuff I like too, we can hang out and talk about them. The stuff we differ on? We can probably be civil. One of my closest friends is a Mustang guy, but I like him anyway.

[Petrol Head]

Originally Posted by cthulhucaller

Another explanation is that people like different things than other people like.

Camaros are just an area where people who like lots of different things intersect on this forum. I like the rumbling and the wrenching, but would be open to the crazy torgue and the software tweaking too. Just because people have the same car, they aren't going to have the same ideals.

I see opposition to new technology on a very regular basis at work, and have seen it all my life. I remember when fuel injection was the lame thing, and when they started to put computers in cars, everyone freaked out. Anyone here on this forum got past that. Computers in cars ended up being pretty badass. Most people that spent time getting a Quadrajet right, just to have it go wrong will join me on that view.

Camaros are cars, and no matter how they are powered, cars are going to have plenty of opportunities for wrench swinging, modifying, beautifying, and generally being loved by car guys. Whatever the car manufacturers try to send out as black boxes eventually get opened, tweaked, and manipulated by the spirited car guys, and that knowledge keeps on moving around in places like this.

"Stop liking what I don't like" is how we get ourselves into a lot of stupid positions throughout many aspects of our lives. Me? You can like whatever, but if you like some of the stuff I like too, we can hang out and talk about them. The stuff we differ on? We can probably be civil. One of my closest friends is a Mustang guy, but I like him anyway.

Fuel injection and computers in cars is an apples to oranges comparison to electric. Not even close.

Fact is most people never had an issue going from carburetors. You didn’t have to pump the pedal and risk flooding a cold engine, and it would start on the first turn of the key in 20 below zero weather. EVERYONE loved those ideas.

But it was still a combustion engine. It was still a car.

Electric isn’t even remotely similar to the switch from carbs to FI.

[cthulhucaller]

Originally Posted by Petrol Head

Fuel injection and computers in cars is an apples to oranges comparison to electric. Not even close.

Fact is most people never had an issue going from carburetors. You didn’t have to pump the pedal and risk flooding a cold engine, and it would start on the first turn of the key in 20 below zero weather. EVERYONE loved those ideas.

But it was still a combustion engine. It was still a car.

Electric isn’t even remotely similar to the switch from carbs to FI.

Drivers liked the switch in technology. many mechanics did not. Myself included at the time. I raged and battled it mightily, but ended up liking it. It was just a matter of what I was comfortable working on. There is no real growth without some sort of discomfort.

I'm not super excited for a battery powered car, but I'm open to trying them out as they develop. I've driven a Tesla a few times. I'm not running out to buy one, but it did put a smile on my face.

I get where you're coming from. Everyone has a line. I won't be trying any gas grills, cause I'm all about lump charcoal. I can totally holy war on that.

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by Petrol Head

This website is titled Camaro6.com.

Would you take your bs to a first Gen Camaro forum? No. They’d ban you outright.

If I was a mod here I would too. This is completely off the basic principle of this entire forum. It’s for the 6th Gen Camaro.

There are PLENTY of forums on the internet to discuss anything electric you want.

THIS ONE is not one of them.

Use common sense.

Been here 10 years before you lol and sadly suspecting I'll be here 10 years after you are gone

But respect your passion.

[396ssrat]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

You may want to 2nd check your logic on this one. If something has a higher carbon footprint to produce, you’d want it to last longer because making a replacement would increase the total carbon footprint. You’d want to delay the need to produce another. Then there’s the basic question...how do you know it has a higher carbon footprint to produce?

One thing we know for sure is that plastic isn't all that good for the environment and they use more and more of it every year in vehicles. Let alone the coming disposal problems all the spent batteries will cause. That's just the tip of the spear too. I suspect electric will be short lived in the not too far future.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by 396ssrat

One thing we know for sure is that plastic isn't all that good for the environment and they use more and more of it every year in vehicles. Let alone the coming disposal problems all the spent batteries will cause. That's just the tip of the spear too. I suspect electric will be short lived in the not too far future.

There is already a parallel industry in the works for reuse of EV batteries. The way EV batteries are designed, by the time they are removed from a vehicle (8-10 years from first use) they still have about 80% of their useful life left. They can be used for energy storage and release. Power plants are already looking at reusing EV batteries to store energy generated off-peak for distribution during peak hours. GM expects to run at least two entire plants from energy from retired batteries. There are also companies ramping up battery remanufacturing processes.

https://www.greentechmedia.com/artic...sing-batteries

[redcoats1976]

Originally Posted by 02blackss

In many countries of the world, they are still hanging on to 80's and 90's cars making them last as long as possible. When I was in Poland a few years ago where my wife is from, I was in total disbelief with how many older Fiat's , Honda's and surprisingly quite a few domestic cars as well were on the road. Point is, until you force people to start buying these electric cars, people will not flock to the showrooms to buy them. Especially ones that people simply can not afford. Make a 25,000 dollar economy 4 door car to run back and forth with and I may consider it. Also, for the millions of people who live in areas where they need to park their cars on the streets, will there be city installed charging stations everywhere by the hundreds? Sorry but I just do not see it going over very well at all. The ICE market is saturated worldwide and people will continue to buy them used until they are outlawed. As far as the electric Camaro, I would love to see one, but I am quite happy with my 2021 LT1 and 2002 SS.

my son loves his 1993 honda del sol.finally got my wife out of her 1994 nissan sentra last year.i wonder how much pollution was not created because they kept these cars instead of trading them in for a new model every couple of years,but thats the auto industrys nightmare.