[90503]

I recall a reputable and knowledgeable member was an eyewitness to some testing with the camo on....He stated his best estimate was the new Camaro appeared to be about 10-15%, not much (his words), smaller than the 5th Gen....

[DenverTaco07]

Just for the sake of the size topic...

i would call an FR-S with a 101in wheelbase...small, maybe even very small.

Also, as much as i like the 5th, it is on the big side, so trimming it up is welcomed IMO.

Nice comparison photo Angrybird...can't argue with that one very much considering it is almost in the same exact spot as the prototype. Scale looks pretty damn right on.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by DenverTaco07

What if we start with the idea that the 5th gen is a fat pig

Ok...hypothetical: could the 6amaro keep same wheelbase and still get smaller?

anyway, i predict a 110.5 in wheelbase, 182 in overall.

I still don't get the whole architecture thing...can the cts-v and ats-v have different overall length's? If so, how is it not a different size?

They can. And do. An architecture...rudimentally put, is a parts bin of exchangeable, expensive core components that can be shared between vehicles no matter what the size. The Alpha architecture was designed with a couple different sizes in mind so that it could accommodate many different vehicles and therefore be a profitable project. Flexibility = profit.

So the CTS uses the longer wheelbase version of the platform. And ATS uses the shorter wheelbase version. Once the core parts are chosen and integrated, there's a good amount of unique changes that can be made for each application such as track width, roofline, etc, etc. And of course all the equipment that gets bolted onto the new "skeleton" can (and usually are) unique and custom-matched to the application.

When you think size and how it relates to weight...you must think about all the metal that can be removed. If you keep the same wheelbase (length of the chassis between wheels) as the current car, all you're going to be able to shrink is the trunk and engine compartment. That's not going to do much in terms of weight savings, and would probably result in crappy proportions and an odd design. A lot of the material on the ends of the car is lightweight plastic, anyways.

If you shrink the wheelbase a bit, now you've chopped away frame rails, cut inches of an entire unibody, fuel lines, prop-shaft, wiring, door length, etc. annnnnd...tugged the heavy parts of the suspension (wheels, brakes, and knuckles) closer to the center of gravity, making the car less resistant to yaw/rotational changes when, oh say, going into or coming out of a corner real fast. This will make the car feel more nimble, light, and reactant to driver input.

[MrChrisLS3]

Originally Posted by DenverTaco07

What if we start with the idea that the 5th gen is a fat pig

Ok...hypothetical: could the 6amaro keep same wheelbase and still get smaller?

anyway, i predict a 110.5 in wheelbase, 182 in overall.

I still don't get the whole architecture thing...can the cts-v and ats-v have different overall length's? If so, how is it not a different size?

Mr. Wyndham did a nice job with his explaination. Look at like a human skeleton. They are all basically the same, yet some of us are taller, some shorter, some thinner, some wider, yet the basic architecture is the same.

So, they start out with this basic architecture, and adjust the ends to fit the desired wheel base.

So how can they make the car roughly the same size and still lose weight? Tech has come a long way in just a few short years. How they stiffened the Corvette, using lighter material and still making stiffer is a great example. Instead of making the frame rails all one thickness, they reinforced the critical areas with extra thickness, and the non critical with less. Thus they were able to make a an aluminum frame 60% stiffer then the old steel frame, while losing nearly 100 lbs off the assembled chassis. Basically getting more done with less is the product of this technology.

The other benefit is being able to incorporate lighterwieght materials throughout the car. Things like composite suspension pieces, lighter sheet metal, or adding more composite parts.

[Number 3]

Guys, I hope I am incorrect on this. But this car will be smaller no doubt in my mind. If it isn't it will simply be because they put wider wheel offsets on it and designed the body around it. If they do that...........it's mass. They may elect to pick and choose elements of CTS and ATS variants to size the car just right. But if they pick the CTS, as I mentioned, it weighs nearly the same as my Zeta based SS. And I don't think the Camaro gets premium materials at a $22,000 starting point.

But we'll see soon.

[hotlap]

The gen5 is a big car compared to any pervious gen. When I drive it, my impression is that the car is wide compared to the 04 GTO I drive every day. My mother in-law walked through my garage last Friday and said "oh, what a big car". She is in no way car interested... at all.

Is it possible for Alpha to be narrower and not feel cramped?

[KMPrenger]

I've said it before, I'll say it again. A Camaro that is a tad-bit smaller than the 5th gen sounds perfect to me, and I think that is what we are getting here. The 5th gen is larger than every other generation of Camaro...so I see nothing wrong with shrinking it back down a bit.

Sure, a few might complain, but those are the guys that really like the big long wide muscle car body types....the same type that loves the Challenger for its size. I'd say that most of us don't fall into that category...I know I don't. The only thing I might miss a little are the super wide hips on the 5th gen, assuming the 6th gen's are visually smaller, and from the spy shots they appear to be.

This car isn't going to be BRZ/FRS/370Z small. Its going to be ATS sized, with likely a wider track and wider body and I think that will be absolutely perfect.

Bring it on.

[Camaro_Corvette]

I just can't wait for May

[DenverTaco07]

Originally Posted by Number 3

Guys, I hope I am incorrect on this. But this car will be smaller no doubt in my mind. If it isn't it will simply be because they put wider wheel offsets on it and designed the body around it. If they do that...........it's mass. They may elect to pick and choose elements of CTS and ATS variants to size the car just right. But if they pick the CTS, as I mentioned, it weighs nearly the same as my Zeta based SS. And I don't think the Camaro gets premium materials at a $22,000 starting point.

But we'll see soon.

Yes ..."Soon" (BTW- haven't seen Fbod for a few weeks...), and really I'm at a huge disadvantage of not knowing much about cars, so you could be right, but let me ask you...are you sure that it has to be either CTS or ATS size? Why can't it be it's own size? Didn't original teaser say something about 70% unique.

Originally Posted by KMPrenger

I've said it before, I'll say it again. A Camaro that is a tad-bit smaller than the 5th gen sounds perfect to me, and I think that is what we are getting here. The 5th gen is larger than every other generation of Camaro...so I see nothing wrong with shrinking it back down a bit.

This car isn't going to be BRZ/FRZ/370Z small. Its going to be ATS sized, with likely a wider track and wider body and I think that will be absolutely perfect.

Bring it on.

Yeah, i've driven an FR-S, it was small. I'm 6ft 240lbs, kinda fat, so small doesn't work well for me. I agree smaller than 5th is a +, but I'm still not convinced it will only be 109in wheelbase.

ATS-V 109.3
CTS-V 114.6
5Th Gen 112.3
6Th Gen ~110.5 (around M3 territory) - cut some of 5th Gen's huge @ss off, and trim the front a little, you get an overall smaller car, but not by much. Smaller + advancements in design and materials = AT LEAST (lets not forget that qualifier) 200Lbs lighter.

BTW, new stang is 107.1, smaller than ATS-V wheelbase.

So...IDK, As long as i can fit in it comfortably, it's all good.

[MrChrisLS3]

Originally Posted by Number 3

Guys, I hope I am incorrect on this. But this car will be smaller no doubt in my mind. If it isn't it will simply be because they put wider wheel offsets on it and designed the body around it. If they do that...........it's mass. They may elect to pick and choose elements of CTS and ATS variants to size the car just right. But if they pick the CTS, as I mentioned, it weighs nearly the same as my Zeta based SS. And I don't think the Camaro gets premium materials at a $22,000 starting point.

But we'll see soon.

I very well believe that they can build this car on the Alpha platform, using all of the technology in strength and weight savings and still sell the base model in the low $20K range.

Keep in mind that the "premium" materials you are speaking of, are those put into the Cadillacs, which is competing in a totally different market. The leather, the gadgets, etc. Just for example, the car a traded in for my '11 SS was an '06 STS. My STS was more of a base model, v6, no nav. But it had passive entry, push button start, remote start, valet mode, auto climate control. Although the dash and much of the interior pieces were indeed plastic, it was a soft touch sort of plastic, and of course it was as quiet as a church mouse.

So, the base Camaro will have cloth seats, and the bare essentials in creature comforts. The Camaro lives in a completely different, and much larger market than the Cadillacs. They will also sell many,many more Camaros. In the world of mass production, the more you make and sell, the lower the per unit cost comes out to be, and you can price them a little closer to vest on the profit margin.

[KMPrenger]

Originally Posted by DenverTaco07

Yes ..."Soon" (BTW- haven't seen Fbod for a few weeks...), and really I'm at a huge disadvantage of not knowing much about cars, so you could be right, but let me ask you...are you sure that it has to be either CTS or ATS size? Why can't it be it's own size? Didn't original teaser say something about 70% unique.

...

The Alpha chassis is supposed to have two versions available. Short wheel base and Long wheel base. I don't see GM creating multiple versions with different lengths for different vehicles. It would add extra cost and complication.

But they can add track width more easily, and in the case of the Camaro it was already stated that they have.

[Mr. Wyndham]

Originally Posted by MrChrisLS3

I very well believe that they can build this car on the Alpha platform, using all of the technology in strength and weight savings and still sell the base model in the low $20K range.

Keep in mind that the "premium" materials you are speaking of, are those put into the Cadillacs, which is competing in a totally different market. The leather, the gadgets, etc. Just for example, the car a traded in for my '11 SS was an '06 STS. My STS was more of a base model, v6, no nav. But it had passive entry, push button start, remote start, valet mode, auto climate control. Although the dash and much of the interior pieces were indeed plastic, it was a soft touch sort of plastic, and of course it was as quiet as a church mouse.

So, the base Camaro will have cloth seats, and the bare essentials in creature comforts. The Camaro lives in a completely different, and much larger market than the Cadillacs. They will also sell many,many more Camaros. In the world of mass production, the more you make and sell, the lower the per unit cost comes out to be, and you can price them a little closer to vest on the profit margin.

"Premium materials", to an engineer...is aluminum, magnesium, composites, carbon fiber. Construction materials, not interior trim work. These are all expensive, but required, to save weight if the size of the car does not change.

In that respect, Number 3 was suggesting it would be difficult to keep the car affordable at the V6, T4 levels.

[Rick802]

There is a 3rd alpha wheelbase...China has available an ats long wheelbase sedan. Here's a write up from autoblog. http://www.autoblog.com/2014/07/29/c...hina-official/

According to the article, the ats-l has a wheelbase of 112.5 inches. That splits the difference between the regular ats and cts. Although it's China only as ats, could work for gen 6.

[shaffe]

The thing that worries me as Number3 alluded to is size. Everytime I have sat in an ATS I have felt cramped. I don't know if its the lay out, but it feels tiny on the inside to me.