[Doc]

Originally Posted by TrackClub

Doc, will all due respect you need to see a doc.
SS is not a $50G car. I paid about $35usd for my SS 1LE. With PDR.

Julia is a nice car. But its styling is very average imo and the shape reminds me of old Taurus.
The interior may be comprised of higher grade materials (it better be for the price) but styling wise i dont see anything special here.

Bottom line this thread is now going in full circles including renders. This is a refresh not a redesign. The body overall still looks the same as gen 6 albeit some trim pieces have changed and gave it a new look.
Love it or hate it - it is what it is. A major thing is that there are 3 distinctive looks for a Camaro now. Hopefully those will resonate with a broad market better than the previous ones. Hopefully GM will price them right too.

I just went to Chevy's site and did a build. A 2SS with some of the options the Giulia has, quickly hit $49,470 and that's not fully loaded. The $50k Giulia Ti is, with automatic 8 speed ZF trans, Ferrari paddle shifters, sunroof, deluxe Harmon Kardon sound system, AWD and other items. I didn't go through all the options on the Camaro to try and do a fully loaded build. It's hard to do a direct comparison because the Camaro is a 2-door high-performance sports GT, while the Giulia is a 4-door sport sedan. The base Camaro 2SS, and the base Giulia Ti sport are both $42k. The base Ti Sport includes the 8-speed trans with paddle shifters however, which cost extra on the Camaro.

Style is always subjective, but that's what makes a car sell compared to others. It may make you feel good to defend the Camaro by saying the Giulia looks average and the interior is nothing special, but it wasn't awarded Motor Trend's 2018 Car of the Year award because it's average and nothing special.

The Camaro sales numbers tell the story, and it's different than what enthusiasts want. Some number of enthusiasts will still buy it, but enthusiasts are the minority. Will it be enough to sustain the model? It may not be. If GM wants to keep the Camaro, they need to do something to make the sales reach the fat part of the bell curve again the way it used to. I just hope the can, and do it in time.

[Dolby109]

Originally Posted by TrackClub

I paid about $35usd for my SS 1LE. With PDR.

I hope I can find a deal like you did. I was expecting ~$40k after discounts.

[IneedAZ]

problem with the Giulia is the HP is much lower at 280hp. To get the 500hp model you are more than ZL1 money. I just picked up a 4door car last month and was difficult to find a car for $50k or less with any HP. I wound up getting a Daytona 392. Rides really nice. Not the same HP as my ZL1, but for a heavy car it rides well, comfortable, and really nice sound with the Harmon Kardon in it.

['01LS1]

Originally Posted by TrackClub

NB Dodge's sales curve hasnt been steadly going up. It has been flat. But thats a win given both Stang and Camaro have been going down. Just fyi Stang sales have decreased steadly since 2015. From some 125k to 81k last yr. And heading downwards...

Just nit picking the decline, but you are crossing numbers from global to US sales. There was an article just yesterday showing US & global sales number for Camaro, Challenger, Mustang.
https://www.autoblog.com/2018/04/17/...-sports-coupe/


The interesting thing while grabbing that article is finding that the head of Cadillac is out after 4 years. While directly unrelated to the Camaro refresh, it does show GM will respond & make changes when market share falls or fails to meet projections. Which, in that regard, fits some of this threads conversation.
https://www.autoblog.com/2018/04/18/...ilse-cadillac/

[TrackClub]

The Julia did win MT 2018 car of the year but then again lets not forget how Camaros did in MT drivers car of the year.

Albeit not a direct competitor to Camaro i am surprised how heavy Julia is. Pretty much matches Camaro incl even the hefty zl1 when compared to the top perf Julia.
Otoh base trims compare more directly to v6 Camaro which is nowhere close price wise. Otoh the top Julia goes for $85Gs which is some serious change and completely outside of any Camaros trim incl ZL1 1LE.

[Dolby109]

Originally Posted by Doc

The Camaro sales numbers tell the story, and it's different than what enthusiasts want. Some number of enthusiasts will still buy it, but enthusiasts are the minority. Will it be enough to sustain the model? It may not be. If GM wants to keep the Camaro, they need to do something to make the sales reach the fat part of the bell curve again the way it used to. I just hope the can, and do it in time.

As I said I think the 2016-2018 style is pretty good, I do think the new front end is a step down. But either way the visual style is impacting it's outward visibility, which I believe (and have observed) is turning away a lot of customers.

When I talked to the engineer driving the 2019 Camaro, I tried to convince him that the 7th Gen should work on improving the greenhouse and visibility, and without being commital he made it seem like the decision was already made (likely by Oppenheiser) to keep the chopped look. He let me check out the rear view camera, as sort of an excuse why you don't need good visibility.
I wanted to converse more and emplore that the Camaro is loosing far more sales to poor visibility than gaining because of the look the high belt line gives, but some rich old guys who apparently both buy new GM Performance cars every year stole the conversation.

[TrackClub]

Originally Posted by '01LS1

Just nit picking the decline, but you are crossing numbers from global to US sales. There was an article just yesterday showing US & global sales number for Camaro, Challenger, Mustang.
https://www.autoblog.com/2018/04/17/...-sports-coupe/


The interesting thing while grabbing that article is finding that the head of Cadillac is out after 4 years. While directly unrelated to the Camaro refresh, it does show GM will respond & make changes when market share falls or fails to meet projections. Which, in that regard, fits some of this threads conversation.
https://www.autoblog.com/2018/04/18/...ilse-cadillac/

Nope. My numbers are for the core pony car market: USA. Stang sold 125k there just 3 yrs ago. Last yr they sold 81k.

[Detroit Muscle]

Originally Posted by indyz

That red car with black jaw look is really looking good. Drool.....insurance going to be higher though lol

Why do you say that?? WHy would insurance be more?

['01LS1]

Originally Posted by Dolby109

When I talked to the engineer driving the 2019 Camaro, I tried to convince him that the 7th Gen should work on improving the greenhouse and visibility, and without being commital he made it seem like the decision was already made (likely by Oppenheiser) to keep the chopped look...

Thinking if they do, that would be a big mistake.

[Doc]

Originally Posted by TrackClub

The Julia did win MT 2018 car of the year but then again lets not forget how Camaros did in MT drivers car of the year.

Albeit not a direct competitor to Camaro i am surprised how heavy Julia is. Pretty much matches Camaro incl even the hefty zl1 when compared to the top perf Julia.
Otoh base trims compare more directly to v6 Camaro which is nowhere close price wise. Otoh the top Julia goes for $85Gs which is some serious change and completely outside of any Camaros trim incl ZL1 1LE.

Unfortunately, due to the ever-increasing regulations all cars have to meet now, the weight seems to be unavoidable. The Giulia is bigger than the pictures would indicate. It doesn't look as big because the design is so well-proportioned, but mine is just as long as my Camaro.

The very base Giulia includes the 8-speed ZF auto trans, and the carbon fiber driveshaft. It starts at about $39k, but it's not in the same category. My point wasn't a direct bolt to bolt comparison, but to illustrate what buyers with $40k-$80k to spend have available to them for looks and features.

['01LS1]

Originally Posted by TrackClub

Nope. My numbers are for the core pony car market: USA. Stang sold 125k there just 3 yrs ago. Last yr they sold 81k.

Gotcha, my bad. There are some similar numbers that overlap when you read the global & US numbers. Posting US sales only per year.

2017 81,866
2016 105,932
2015 122,349
2014 82,635


http://fordauthority.com/fmc/ford-mo...sales-numbers/

[TrackClub]

Well at $80+G we better throw Pcars and Bimmers onto the comparo list. I think $40 and $80 are 2 different market segments.

[Gen6_1Le]

Originally Posted by '01LS1

Thinking if they do, that would be a big mistake.

They had there chance to fix that problem on the 6th Gen and chose not to and i see that to continue with the 7th Gen, Camaros are not for everyone .

[Gen6_1Le]

Originally Posted by Doc

The 5th gen concept car was the vision of a single designer; it had nothing to do with committees, focus groups or polls. It wasn't perfect, but the moment I saw it I wanted one; it didn't have to 'grow' on me. It was a huge hit right out of the gate. Sangyup Lee, the original designer is no longer with Chevy.

What I'm seeing now is just confirmation of what I've felt has been going on ever since they did the first 'refresh'. This latest refresh to me, just illustrates the sad fact that the Chevy design department has no idea what to do with the Camaro. They have no vision of what a Camaro truly is or should be. The engineering team has delivered a spectacular performer; best high-performance sports gt America has ever produced. The body and interior however, just don't rise to the same level of brilliance.

I'm a Camaro fan. Blue Angel is still in my garage. It'll be 9 years now since I first picked it up after ordering it sight-unseen. I'd never driven one or seen one before I ordered it in May of 2009. I just knew I wanted it, and I've never regretted that decision. It pains me to see the design department floundering around with inconsistent, "I wonder if they'll like this?" attempts to modify the Camaro's looks and style.

Chevy's problem is they've priced the car into territory that has some seriously stiff competition. In September of last year, I bought a brand new Alfa Romeo Giulia Ti Lusso. It's Monte Carlo Blue with a Crema interior that's a stunning combination of Italian leather and real walnut. It came with a 280 hp turbo 4, and a chassis that's flat-out the best I've ever experienced. The car was designed by a team of Ferrari and Maserati engineers, and developed and tested in Ferrari's development center and wind tunnel. Essentially, it's a 4 door Ferrari. The price? The base model starts at about $39k, and the one I got which has just about every option you can get, retailed for about $53k. Their top performer, the Giulia Quadrifoglio has the Ferrari V6 with 505 hp, goes 190 mph and starts at about $75k.

For the same $50k, there's no comparison between the Camaro SS and the Giulia Ti. The Camaro has more power and would out-perform the Giulia on the track, but only because of horsepower. The steering and chassis of the Giulia is simply incredible. However... the body and interior of the Giulia exudes refinement, class and style. Pictures don't come close to doing it justice. When you see one in person the styling radiates beauty; a beautiful Italian sculpted masterpiece, with consistent lines and styles from front to back, and inside too. This car clearly was designed by people who had a distinct idea and understanding of what a modern Alfa Romeo should look like and be. All Giulia's, even the base model, come with a carbon fiber driveshaft standard.

Just because the Giulia was designed by Ferrari and Maserati designers, that shouldn't make that much difference. A pencil and sketchpad costs the same no matter what you're designing. Chevy's problem is a lack of vision. They just don't know what to do with the Camaro, which is sadly starting to make it look like the 5th gen was a fluke; inotherwords, they basically got lucky.

I haven't been in this forum for awhile, but I remember having discussions with Number 3 about the need for Chevy to re-invent the pony car and come out with a base Camaro that positions itself back in the sweet spot of the market base it used to be in. It's now gotten to the point where they're going to be in trouble with this car, unless they pull a pretty big rabbit out of their hat. It's getting killed in the price segment it's sitting in now. Track performance isn't enough. You can't really use that kind of performance on the street anymore, and how many people actually take their car to a track?

Keep the high performance models, but come out with a new vision of a re-invented Camaro pony car. The $40k-$80k affluent customer is not at all like the $20k-$30k customer. They are much more demanding, and they can be, because every car maker is going out of their way to cater to them. This includes style, features and looks; not just track performance.

Mark Reuss, or whoever is in charge of the Camaro... PLEASE find a designer with a vision! Forget polls and focus groups. That only leads to design that looks like something the government would do. No more toy robot crap. No more design by committee with 5 different groups in charge of 5 different parts of the car.

Compare what $50k gets you from the new Camaro SS versus the Alfa Romeo Giulia, and this is just in the style and looks department, which believe me, is seriously important to the buyer who can spend $50k:

Alfa Romeo Giulia:
Attachment 930781

Has a definite look of identity to the heritage of Alfa Romeo, yet is clearly a modern design. The cabin is spacious and has good visibility. Very comfortable to be in. A pure joy to drive.


2019 Camaro SS:
Attachment 930782

Everyone's already said enough about the front. The body side is too high, the cabin height is too squashed. Looks out of proportion.


Alfa Romeo Giulia interior:
Attachment 930783

Attachment 930784

Elegant. The display is beautifully integrated into the dash. Steering wheel has the start button on it, and is modern but retains a classic feel.


2019 Camaro:
Attachment 930785

Is this supposed to be some kind of a military look? Thick chunky steering wheel looks like something out of a truck. And the screen... really? Looks like an add-on someone bought at Auto-Zone. For $50k?


The fact that when you start it up, it runs and handles like cars twice it's price, just isn't enough to save it's image. Looks matter. People buy on the basis of how it makes them feel when they look at it. If Chevy doesn't figure this out with the 7th gen, it may be the last Camaro, only this time for real.

The Romeo Giulia is not available with a manual transmission, which is a shame , so for the few people that actually like to shift gears it will never even make a maybe list .