[UnknownJinX]

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

The LT1 is a solid engine. It's just showing its age when 480 horsepower Coyotes running around. Hell, how long has the 6.4 liter Hemi been out now?

I'm not saying the pushrod V8 should die. I'm saying GM should make an effort to keep Camaro powern trains relevant.

Yeah, and its probably dead with the Z/28.

That 20 extra horsepower is pretty much just from lifting the redline a bit, so it's pretty useless in daily driving. It's a pretty old trick in the book, Mazda did the same thing with the ND2 Miata(peak horsepower went up by 26 BHP from ND1, while there was only a 3 lb-ft change in peak torque; redline was lifted from 6800 RPM to 7200 RPM). I'd imagine this is a lot easier to do on DOHC engines than it is on OHV engines without sacrificing too much reliability.

As for Z/28, on one hand I think it's a bit unnecessary seeing how 6th Gen SS is already lighter than the Z/28(which is as barebone as a 5th Gen V8 can get) and they probably just wanted to keep the C6 Z06 engine production line running a little longer, so it works out. On the other hand, I would like to see how light a 6th Gen could get with a powerful V8.

[Idaho2018GTPremium]

Originally Posted by UnknownJinX

That 20 extra horsepower is pretty much just from lifting the redline a bit, so it's pretty useless in daily driving. It's a pretty old trick in the book, Mazda did the same thing with the ND2 Miata(peak horsepower went up by 26 BHP from ND1, while there was only a 3 lb-ft change in peak torque; redline was lifted from 6800 RPM to 7200 RPM). I'd imagine this is a lot easier to do on DOHC engines than it is on OHV engines without sacrificing too much reliability.

As for Z/28, on one hand I think it's a bit unnecessary seeing how 6th Gen SS is already lighter than the Z/28(which is as barebone as a 5th Gen V8 can get) and they probably just wanted to keep the C6 Z06 engine production line running a little longer, so it works out. On the other hand, I would like to see how light a 6th Gen could get with a powerful V8.

Incorrect. The Bullitt and regular GT both make peak power at 7,000 rpm, 480 and 460 hp, respectively. The extra hp on the Bullitt is from the GT350 CAI intake and intake manifold.

[UnknownJinX]

Well I stand corrected then.

But seriously, who can really feel that 20 BHP. I am more curious about the torque curve improvement.

Edit: found this dyno result.



Seems like you get 10ish lb-ft here and there before 5k RPM and becomes more consistent after 5k RPM, which, again, I doubt you'd feel compared to a regular Mustang GT.

Sent from toaster or something

[19coupe]

Test drove a Mustang before my Son got his 2020. Drove like a Fusion. Nice sedan, but no Camaro.
He's had two Gen 6's & a 5the Gen.
I've had a Fox body and two Gen 5's and a Gen 6.

No going back to Mustang here.

[Bhobbs]

Originally Posted by UnknownJinX

That 20 extra horsepower is pretty much just from lifting the redline a bit, so it's pretty useless in daily driving. It's a pretty old trick in the book, Mazda did the same thing with the ND2 Miata(peak horsepower went up by 26 BHP from ND1, while there was only a 3 lb-ft change in peak torque; redline was lifted from 6800 RPM to 7200 RPM). I'd imagine this is a lot easier to do on DOHC engines than it is on OHV engines without sacrificing too much reliability.

As for Z/28, on one hand I think it's a bit unnecessary seeing how 6th Gen SS is already lighter than the Z/28(which is as barebone as a 5th Gen V8 can get) and they probably just wanted to keep the C6 Z06 engine production line running a little longer, so it works out. On the other hand, I would like to see how light a 6th Gen could get with a powerful V8.

So what if its only at the top of the rev range? Look at how the Mustang pulls away from the Camaro beyond the 1/4 mile and that's just with 460 horsepower.

Why compare the weight of the 5th gen to the 6th gen? Anything they did to the 5th gen Z could be done to the 6th gen.

[UnknownJinX]

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

So what if its only at the top of the rev range? Look at how the Mustang pulls away from the Camaro beyond the 1/4 mile and that's just with 460 horsepower.

Why compare the weight of the 5th gen to the 6th gen? Anything they did to the 5th gen Z could be done to the 6th gen.

The flip side of your first point is that Mustang will start off slower given the same transmission. High-end power is useful on a racetrack/drag strip when you have space to actually use the higher rev range, but day to day driving? Low-end torque is a lot more useful. It all depends on your use of the car. If high-end power is all that matters, use an F1 engine.

And I already kind of covered the 2nd point. I would like to see how light and track-capable they can make a NA V8 Camaro, but I guess it's not happening.

[Bhobbs]

Originally Posted by UnknownJinX

The flip side of your first point is that Mustang will start off slower given the same transmission. High-end power is useful on a racetrack/drag strip when you have space to actually use the higher rev range, but day to day driving? Low-end torque is a lot more useful. It all depends on your use of the car. If high-end power is all that matters, use an F1 engine.

And I already kind of covered the 2nd point. I would like to see how light and track-capable they can make a NA V8 Camaro, but I guess it's not happening.

That's a valid point and a major reason why the Camaro is quicker to 60 mph and through the 1/4 mile. The issue is horsepower sells. Camaro is way behind in the horsepower wars. Combine that with the less user friendly interior and you get the sales results we are seeing. The chassis can't be changed until there is a 7th generation, if that happens. You can add horsepower. GM just doesn't seem to understand that.

[FarmerFran]

The 2019 "refresh" they should have added a few HP even if it was just smoke and mirrors. 475/475 would have been easily obtainable. But like so many have said their concentration is elsewhere, like the C8, blackwing, EV etc..

And before anyone mentions the BW is canceled, yes i know, but it cost them a shitton to engineer.

[Idaho2018GTPremium]

Originally Posted by UnknownJinX

Well I stand corrected then.

But seriously, who can really feel that 20 BHP. I am more curious about the torque curve improvement.

Edit: found this dyno result.



Seems like you get 10ish lb-ft here and there before 5k RPM and becomes more consistent after 5k RPM, which, again, I doubt you'd feel compared to a regular Mustang GT.

Sent from toaster or something

20 hp on top of 460 hp is not a huge improvement, but it's something. Incremental improvements lead to large improvements over time. 20 hp should get these cars +1 to 1.5 mph in the 1/4 mile trap speed, which is nice. What cracks me up is the Z51 C8 Corvette vs base Corvette 495 vs 490 hp. 5 hp is probably within the +/- tolerance of any given engine.

[RobbyBeefcake87]

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

So what if its only at the top of the rev range? Look at how the Mustang pulls away from the Camaro beyond the 1/4 mile and that's just with 460 horsepower.

Why compare the weight of the 5th gen to the 6th gen? Anything they did to the 5th gen Z could be done to the 6th gen.

And you don't think that's related to gearing?

Because it doesn't pull away right after the quarter mile, in fact m6 vs m6 the camaro traps higher in the quarter and usually beats the mustang in a roll race too, because most post people don't roll race past 140mph. Typical publisher numbers show ss and ss 1le's have been tested at 12.3-12.5 @114-118, gt pp1 and pp2's 12.6 @113-115. 480hp Bullitt's I've seen 12.8 @115.

The mustang is faster to 150mph than the camaro, 23.3 (pp2) vs 25.6 (1le) according to instrumented testing. The camaro becomes a dog because it has to shift into a really steep overdrive 5th gear after 139 mph where the mustang can stay in the 1:1 4th gear all the way to 150mph due to the higher redline obviously.

However, before that 5th gear shift according to instrumented tests from Car and Driver, Road and Track, and in roll racing practice, the camaro is faster and reaches 130mph quicker. 0-130 in 15.7 (1le) vs 16.4 (pp1) (the 480 hp Bullit in 16.6). 130 is quite a bit after the 1/4 and yet the mustang is still behind.

The m7 c7 corvette is also powered by the same lt1 and it reaches 150mph faster than the 5.0 mustang at 22.1 for a stingray and 22.9 for a more aero heavy GS. Why? Because the corvette has different gearing than the Camaro that allows it to stay in 4th gear all the way to 147mph (while 4th is a 1:1 like the camaro and the mustang, the rear end gearing is 3.42 unlike the 3.73 in the ss and gt). Now while the corvette is lighter and more aero dynamic than both the camaro and the mustang, that alone does not cause this discrepancy being that the corvette is only about a tenth or two quicker than the camaro in the quarter mile and only a couple of tenths faster to 130mph at 15.5 for a GS. It's the early shift into 5th that kills the camaro past 135.

For reference the 460hp lt1 stingray corvette is just as fast to 150mph as a super high reving 526hp shelby gt350. Though to be fair the gt350 has to shift into 5th to reach 150 like the camaro, but it is more aggresively geared with fith gear being the 1:1 for the gt350s trans however.

The coyote's main advantage up top is just being able to stay in an equal gear for longer time due to the extra 900 rpm before redline. So we can keep listening to the mustang bros saying how hard it pulls up top or look at the numbers and learn. I will say, based on feel though, the coyote keeps on building where the camaro feels like it hits hard early and plateus, but feel doesn't necessarily mean anything.

[RobbyBeefcake87]

Originally Posted by Idaho2018GTPremium

20 hp on top of 460 hp is not a huge improvement, but it's something. Incremental improvements lead to large improvements over time. 20 hp should get these cars +1 to 1.5 mph in the 1/4 mile trap speed, which is nice. What cracks me up is the Z51 C8 Corvette vs base Corvette 495 vs 490 hp. 5 hp is probably within the +/- tolerance of any given engine.

I'm hoping that 480hp translates better on the mach 1 with the tr3160/10r80 and better tires than it did on the Bullit and mt82 that typically showed to be slower than a performance pack GT.

[UnknownJinX]

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

That's a valid point and a major reason why the Camaro is quicker to 60 mph and through the 1/4 mile. The issue is horsepower sells. Camaro is way behind in the horsepower wars. Combine that with the less user friendly interior and you get the sales results we are seeing. The chassis can't be changed until there is a 7th generation, if that happens. You can add horsepower. GM just doesn't seem to understand that.

Hard to argue against that. Yeah, it would be good marketing sauce.

To me, it sounds like GM could just slap the GM CAI on and also get that extra 20 HP.

Originally Posted by RobbyBeefcake87

And you don't think that's related to gearing?

Because it doesn't pull away right after the quarter mile, in fact m6 vs m6 the camaro traps higher in the quarter and usually beats the mustang in a roll race too, because most post people don't roll race past 140mph. Typical publisher numbers show ss and ss 1le's have been tested at 12.3-12.5 @114-118, gt pp1 and pp2's 12.6 @113-115. 480hp Bullitt's I've seen 12.8 @115.

The mustang is faster to 150mph than the camaro, 23.3 (pp2) vs 25.6 (1le) according to instrumented testing. The camaro becomes a dog because it has to shift into a really steep overdrive 5th gear after 139 mph where the mustang can stay in the 1:1 4th gear all the way to 150mph due to the higher redline obviously.

However, before that 5th gear shift according to instrumented tests from Car and Driver, Road and Track, and in roll racing practice, the camaro is faster and reaches 130mph quicker. 0-130 in 15.7 (1le) vs 16.4 (pp1) (the 480 hp Bullit in 16.6). 130 is quite a bit after the 1/4 and yet the mustang is still behind.

The m7 c7 corvette is also powered by the same lt1 and it reaches 150mph faster than the 5.0 mustang at 22.1 for a stingray and 22.9 for a more aero heavy GS. Why? Because the corvette has different gearing than the Camaro that allows it to stay in 4th gear all the way to 147mph (while 4th is a 1:1 like the camaro and the mustang, the rear end gearing is 3.42 unlike the 3.73 in the ss and gt). Now while the corvette is lighter and more aero dynamic than both the camaro and the mustang, that alone does not cause this discrepancy being that the corvette is only about a tenth or two quicker than the camaro in the quarter mile and only a couple of tenths faster to 130mph at 15.5 for a GS. It's the early shift into 5th that kills the camaro past 135.

For reference the 460hp lt1 stingray corvette is just as fast to 150mph as a super high reving 526hp shelby gt350. Though to be fair the gt350 has to shift into 5th to reach 150 like the camaro, but it is more aggresively geared with fith gear being the 1:1 for the gt350s trans however.

The coyote's main advantage up top is just being able to stay in an equal gear for longer time due to the extra 900 rpm before redline. So we can keep listening to the mustang bros saying how hard it pulls up top or look at the numbers and learn. I will say, based on feel though, the coyote keeps on building where the camaro feels like it hits hard early and plateus, but feel doesn't necessarily mean anything.

Man, it really blows that this forum doesn't have an upvote function or something like that. Really great explanation.

Originally Posted by Idaho2018GTPremium

20 hp on top of 460 hp is not a huge improvement, but it's something. Incremental improvements lead to large improvements over time. 20 hp should get these cars +1 to 1.5 mph in the 1/4 mile trap speed, which is nice. What cracks me up is the Z51 C8 Corvette vs base Corvette 495 vs 490 hp. 5 hp is probably within the +/- tolerance of any given engine.

The 5 BHP was also the case for C7 as well. I mean, the NPP exhaust has to do something that can be quantified.

[RobbyBeefcake87]

Originally Posted by UnknownJinX

Hard to argue against that. Yeah, it would be good marketing sauce.

To me, it sounds like GM could just slap the GM CAI on and also get that extra 20 HP.



Man, it really blows that this forum doesn't have an upvote function or something like that. Really great explanation.



The 5 BHP was also the case for C7 as well. I mean, the NPP exhaust has to do something that can be quantified.

Thanks brother, I like to nerd out when it comes to these topics lol.

[TRZ06]

HP wars bug me.

In any given car / platform, there is a limit to the HP and TQ that the chassis can handle while keeping everything in balance.

Some love having more motor than the chassis can handle, but for me, I prefer that balance. HP is useless if you can't put it to the ground and if it over stresses the rest of the car.

That is the beauty of a car like the Porsche GT4. I put the SS 1LE in that category as well, although in a heavier package than the GT4. It has just the right amount of power and keeps everything in harmony and working together as a cohesive package.

That was one of the reasons I hated my 16' M3, it had too much power for its chassis, it was a mess at anything over 7/10ths