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Old 12-03-2022, 08:48 AM   #1
BanOne
 
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Rear Sway bar setting

So I have a question for the more experienced racers in the group on car dynamics. Up to now I have been running with the rear sway bar on the soft setting thinking that would help the rear end on corner exit bite a bit more, not sure the logic it was just the thought at the time. After living with that setting for the past year and a half as I learned the car and became more experienced as a driver I am starting to rethink that. Running in sport1 I get the traction control light flashing on the PDR feedback and it seems the car has trouble putting traction down on corner exit. I do know I need to be better with throttle application and steering unwind but would moving the sway bar to the firm setting help that at all. I have also thought of lowering rear tire pressure as well.

Thanks for the input
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Old 12-03-2022, 03:33 PM   #2
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I do believe a stiffer sway bar actually reduces traction on that particular axle. I've been getting some understeer recently, and my plan is to get an alignment first, and then soften my front bar to get it to even out.

I definitely wouldn't call myself an experienced racer, but I have a bunch of adjustable parts on the car and I've had to mess around with all the settings to get the car neutral.
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Old 12-03-2022, 04:11 PM   #3
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Yes, swaybars allow you give up traction on one end of the car to increase it at the other (during cornering only). IOW, they allow you adjust the amount of understeer or oversteer. The stiffer you make the bar at one end, the more lateral weight transfer happens at that end. That makes that end grip less, but it also reduces the lateral weight transfer at the other end and so that other end grips more.

So to the OP, you don't want to make the rear bar stiffer if you're already not happy with the rear traction you have on corner exit. Just to be clear, the shorter you make the swaybar arms, the stiffer the bar gets. So if you're on the softest setting, that means you are using the furthest hole from the bar's frame mounts, right?
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Old 12-03-2022, 04:44 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Msquared View Post
So if you're on the softest setting, that means you are using the furthest hole from the bar's frame mounts, right?
Yes that is correct farthest hole from the frame mounts. Have not gotten understeer just alot of tail end wiggle on exit.
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Old 12-13-2022, 05:31 PM   #5
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Have you tried running a different set of tires?

For example, I am doing autox and my first set of tires were horrible. I could not put the power down at all on exit.

My fastest time with the older tires was a 56.9 or something along that.

I then switched tires, and got the Goodyear Eagle F1 Supercar 3 tires (which come stock on the 1LE) and just by doing that, I was able to get a new PR of 52.3 seconds. I did not slide at all and the traction control light did not even turn on during exit, meaning I was gripping all the way.

I then went and got a track alignment (-2 degrees of camber up front) and I shed even more time (if I wouldnt have hit a cone, it wouldve been 2 more seconds off).

Either way, I think you should try new tires, and an alignment before you mess more with the sway bar.

I forgot to mention, I have a 2017 1SS on factory suspension, except for the Eibach pro kit lowering springs and aftermarket wider wheels (Velgen (1LE Spec size)) and tires.

Video link below (if you're interested in watching):

Crappy tires (no alignment either):


New Alignment and Sticky tires:
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Old 12-13-2022, 07:35 PM   #6
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My experience has to do with adding stiffer front and rear bars with my DSSV setup. After the conversion, I ran the stock SLE bars (stiffer than the ZLE bars) and had some issues with rear drive grip. I debated going to the softer ZLE bars but in the end, decided on going the much stiffer Hotchkis/BMR route and couldn't be happier. Rear grip actually improved quite a bit and that is backed up with data.

Ken
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Old 12-13-2022, 08:50 PM   #7
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Did you go with the adjustable BMR sway bars for front and rear?
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Old 12-13-2022, 09:11 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by khcoaching View Post
My experience has to do with adding stiffer front and rear bars with my DSSV setup. After the conversion, I ran the stock SLE bars (stiffer than the ZLE bars) and had some issues with rear drive grip. I debated going to the softer ZLE bars but in the end, decided on going the much stiffer Hotchkis/BMR route and couldn't be happier. Rear grip actually improved quite a bit and that is backed up with data.

Ken

I wonder how much stiffer the Hotchkis and BMR bars really are as installed/dynamically in comparison to the OE SS 1LE (FE4) bars. On paper, when we compare diameters and construction, IIRC, the Hotchkis and BMR bars are about a minimum 35% or so stiffer than the OE FE4 bars. That's when the endlinks are positioned at the softest setting.

The mounting between the OE and aftermarket bars is completely different. The rubber mounts on the OE bars are essentially glued to the bars. Compared to the the typical aftermarket poly mounts, the OE glued mounts will add rate once the bars are in play. IOW, the OE mounts may add more rate beyond what is accounted for from the bar's diameter and construction. It could be argued they won't add much, but I've pushed against them myself and there is noticeable resistance there. This also comes into play under heavy straight line braking as the OE glued mount may resists nose dive better than the aftermarket poly mounts.

Ken, your experience pushed me to look at the preload on '22 SS 1LE OE bar. My car as delivered had about 15-20mm of preload on both ends of the rear bar. This should add stiffness to that end. In relation to my above paragraph, this preload is not considered when people compare the published stiffness differences between the OE and aftermarket bars. Whether GM intends to build in that additional preload to the SS 1LE may never be known. I've seen a bunch of observations of the OE front bars having preload only on one side, not the entire bar. This was the case on mine also. My '14 SS 1LE had slight preload on its OE bars, so I think GM is doing a little bit of preload to help optimize the cross weights.
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Old 12-13-2022, 09:13 PM   #9
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I'll also add, I thought my car should have been better at putting the power down on the exits of the slower, tighter turns at my track. That rear preload I found may have been causing that.
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Old 12-13-2022, 09:32 PM   #10
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My results on sway bars have been unexpected... if anyone has any thoughts let me know.

Last season ('21) I got a set of dedicated autox wheels and tires, got the GMPP diff tune flashed and GMPP ZLE rear cradle bushings installed, max camber with stock parts. Good start but not able to put the power down or slalom well enough to be competitive with top level CAM cars.

For '22 I installed the Hotchkis ft bar and ZLE rear bar, both set on medium. Much stiffer front and softer rear. Also went to 3.7 front and 2.5 rear camber, zero toe ft, .2 total toe-in rear. I was expecting to have to deal with some understeer but that didn't happen, the car's rear end just stays behind the front much better, which allows a tighter line through slaloms and it puts power down better. It took some time to adapt to the new setup, after I did it was much faster. Seems like the OEM SLE is relatively undersrprung with stiffer roll bars and magride damping to compensate. It likes to hang it's rear end out, which is entertaining but not as fast as possible.

I expected the steady state handling balance to be pretty different with such a large change in sway bars but in skidpad type scenarios it's somehow just perfect, it reacts to the throttle exactly as you'd expect without understeering more than with the stock bars.

So, IDK... I can say for autox that Hotchkis ft/ZLE rear combo works well. If you add an aggressive alignment and GMPP rear diff tune you'll have a very fast car.
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Old 12-13-2022, 10:07 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cdb95z28 View Post
I wonder how much stiffer the Hotchkis and BMR bars really are as installed/dynamically in comparison to the OE SS 1LE (FE4) bars. On paper, when we compare diameters and construction, IIRC, the Hotchkis and BMR bars are about a minimum 35% or so stiffer than the OE FE4 bars. That's when the endlinks are positioned at the softest setting.

The mounting between the OE and aftermarket bars is completely different. The rubber mounts on the OE bars are essentially glued to the bars. Compared to the the typical aftermarket poly mounts, the OE glued mounts will add rate once the bars are in play. IOW, the OE mounts may add more rate beyond what is accounted for from the bar's diameter and construction. It could be argued they won't add much, but I've pushed against them myself and there is noticeable resistance there. This also comes into play under heavy straight line braking as the OE glued mount may resists nose dive better than the aftermarket poly mounts.

Ken, your experience pushed me to look at the preload on '22 SS 1LE OE bar. My car as delivered had about 15-20mm of preload on both ends of the rear bar. This should add stiffness to that end. In relation to my above paragraph, this preload is not considered when people compare the published stiffness differences between the OE and aftermarket bars. Whether GM intends to build in that additional preload to the SS 1LE may never be known. I've seen a bunch of observations of the OE front bars having preload only on one side, not the entire bar. This was the case on mine also. My '14 SS 1LE had slight preload on its OE bars, so I think GM is doing a little bit of preload to help optimize the cross weights.
I wonder about the actual in car stiffness differences myself. The hotchkiss bar does have freer movement due to the greased poly bushings. The ride quality up front is actually a bit better because of the poly. The front is stiffer and flatter in turns as to be expected, and stiffness feel is closer to the rear feel. The stock bar made the front feel softer vs the rear. I don’t know what 40% stiffer bar is supposed to be over stock, the combo is stiffer but it just doesn’t seem like a lot. Roll is less but not a huge difference, just enough to flatten the roll mostly in most turns. Understeer is more of course, but I use it for the square tire setup so not too bad. So the stock rubber bushings may help the stock bar be a bit stiffer in actual operation.

My front sle bar also appears to have preload on one end, the endlink is mounted different or the strut is .The right side is higher by 1/4”. Assuming for the cross weights as well. It is high that side using the stock bar or my hotchkiss bar. Both using stock end links. My 2012 SS was the same way. With stock struts , springs or two different coilovers.
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Old 12-13-2022, 10:42 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by VR Baron View Post
I wonder about the actual in car stiffness differences myself. The hotchkiss bar does have freer movement due to the greased poly bushings. The ride quality up front is actually a bit better because of the poly. The front is stiffer and flatter in turns as to be expected, and stiffness feel is closer to the rear feel. The stock bar made the front feel softer vs the rear. I don’t know what 40% stiffer bar is supposed to be over stock, the combo is stiffer but it just doesn’t seem like a lot. Roll is less but not a huge difference, just enough to flatten the roll mostly in most turns. Understeer is more of course, but I use it for the square tire setup so not too bad. So the stock rubber bushings may help the stock bar be a bit stiffer in actual operation.

My front sle bar also appears to have preload on one end, the endlink is mounted different or the strut is .The right side is higher by 1/4”. Assuming for the cross weights as well. It is high that side using the stock bar or my hotchkiss bar. Both using stock end links. My 2012 SS was the same way. With stock struts , springs or two different coilovers.


My '22 front OE bar was about 1/4 -3/8" preloaded, IIRC. I'm at work right now, my notes are at home, but that falls in line with your observation. Are you running the Hotchkis rear bar also?

I measured the front OE endlink lengths and they look to be the same. And the their mounting brackets on the struts look to be in the same place, but I didn't measure those I just did a visual comparison. Someone here on the forums had a video of observed preload on an installed Hotchkis bar. It's either engineered in the bend of both the OE and aftermarket bars or it's somewhere else that is creating the preload.
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Old 12-13-2022, 10:57 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by cdb95z28 View Post


My '22 front OE bar was about 1/4 -3/8" preloaded, IIRC. I'm at work right now, my notes are at home, but that falls in line with your observation. Are you running the Hotchkis rear bar also?

I measured the front OE endlink lengths and they look to be the same. And the their mounting brackets on the struts look to be in the same place, but I didn't measure those I just did a visual comparison. Someone here on the forums had a video of observed preload on an installed Hotchkis bar. It's either engineered in the bend of both the OE and aftermarket bars or it's somewhere else that is creating the preload.
Not using the hotchkiss rear bar. Yeah the end links are the same. On the fifth gen also. But that makes sense. Interchangeable and keep costs lower being the same. Could it be the strut raising the car ? Would have to be the body area it bolts to to be different and not sure that’s the case . Fifth gen seemed to be different. But I bet it is the bar. It is so twisted in its shape it would be hard to tell. Tomorrow I may look at my stock bar and see
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Old 12-14-2022, 07:02 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cdb95z28 View Post
I wonder how much stiffer the Hotchkis and BMR bars really are as installed/dynamically in comparison to the OE SS 1LE (FE4) bars. On paper, when we compare diameters and construction, IIRC, the Hotchkis and BMR bars are about a minimum 35% or so stiffer than the OE FE4 bars. That's when the endlinks are positioned at the softest setting.

The mounting between the OE and aftermarket bars is completely different. The rubber mounts on the OE bars are essentially glued to the bars. Compared to the the typical aftermarket poly mounts, the OE glued mounts will add rate once the bars are in play. IOW, the OE mounts may add more rate beyond what is accounted for from the bar's diameter and construction. It could be argued they won't add much, but I've pushed against them myself and there is noticeable resistance there. This also comes into play under heavy straight line braking as the OE glued mount may resists nose dive better than the aftermarket poly mounts.

Ken, your experience pushed me to look at the preload on '22 SS 1LE OE bar. My car as delivered had about 15-20mm of preload on both ends of the rear bar. This should add stiffness to that end. In relation to my above paragraph, this preload is not considered when people compare the published stiffness differences between the OE and aftermarket bars. Whether GM intends to build in that additional preload to the SS 1LE may never be known. I've seen a bunch of observations of the OE front bars having preload only on one side, not the entire bar. This was the case on mine also. My '14 SS 1LE had slight preload on its OE bars, so I think GM is doing a little bit of preload to help optimize the cross weights.
For sure you are on to something here and that is basically what my MCS contact talked about. He felt that that there was a preload/bind problem with the stock setup (with DSSV) and wanted me to test by just adding adjustable sway bar links (SBL) before changing the bars. I did try that and did notice the car was "freer" but no real performance difference. It wasn't until I changed the bars that I noticed the big difference.

I will add, when I did install the bars, I took the time to zero preload them and initial driving had me feeling a "lag" between the wheel movement and the front reacting. I added a few turns of front bar preload and that totally went away.

For the people that have driven my car whose feedback I trust (Randy Pobst) they have all mentioned how well balanced the car is, no understeer (unless induced) and the car feel incredibly tight, like a race car. The only issue is the car is for sure is a bit pissed off, or edgy, and some may be due to the totally solid rear end and the alignment I used when they drove it.

Next step on mine is Hoosiers to see how real grip works with it this setup.

Ken
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